Friday, January 20, 2017
The Complaint -- Part 5
More room for comments. Meanwhile there's apparently been no new news on the lawsuit. CBS will either opt for the "only an opinion" defense or the "Burke is a public figure" defense -- or else either try for a settlement OR actually take it to trial. Since a settlement would probably require a public retraction, they might feel they have no choice but to fight it out in court. We just need to be patient.
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The Complaint was filed January 4th, and CBS, et al. have 21 days after the date they are each served to file their Answers unless they move the court for an extension of time, which is usually no more than 30 days.
ReplyDeleteSo, if Doc permits, I'm issuing a BOLO to HKH and our other eagle-eyed compatriots here: Please keep an eye out for Answers beginning about January 25/26.
Thanks
CC
This is a good time to go over that Pineapple Bowl in more depth.............. ;-)
ReplyDelete-J
I opened the door for that last week, didn't I, J, when I was wishing for a return to the good old days?
DeleteRiddle me this: In your pineapple scenario does Burke serve himself the blasted stuff or did someone else dish it up for him?
CC
Either it was prepared at an earlier time and he took it out that night OR he prepared it himself.
ReplyDelete-J
was the spoon ever tested for prints and saliva??
ReplyDeleteThe spoon could have Burke's saliva all over it and this blog would tell you that when he was emptying the dishwasher, he was drooling, which is why the spoon has his saliva on it.
Delete-J
Well aren't you such a hoot? The pineapple evidence is just as inconclusive as everything else in this case. That's the bottom line.
DeleteAs Billy Eichner says….and………AWAY……WE…..GO
Delete-Burke said he was downstairs after being put to bed
-He stares at a picture of the bowl of pineapple and acts like a kid who just got caught before saying he doesn’t know what it is.
-Bowl of pineapple that neither John or Patsy say they took out is sitting on the table, WITH Burke and Patsy’s fingerprints on it
-JB has pineapple in her system
CONCLUSION: Its Burkes freaking bowl of pineapple. The funny thing is that it ultimately doesn’t prove he murdered her and doesn’t prove anything other than he was downstairs around the time we can estimate that she was killed. Just because the JDI team decides to not find the logic in this, doesn’t make anything Im saying not true.
-J
Waiting for the replies to come in telling me how exhausting I am or how wrong I am.......bring it, I can take it
Delete-J
You're right. It doesn't prove he killed her. Thank you.
DeleteEaaasssssyyyyyyyy Columbo. I never said it did prove he murdered her
Delete-J
You're going to need more than some pineapple to prove Burke killed his sister. This is an interesting case because I believe it's unprosecutable no matter what theory one has.
DeleteI get it Zach.....the pineapple for me helps build the case that Burke was up and downstairs around the time she would have needed to be killed. I fully believe Patsy was aware of what happened and helped stage which eliminates JDI for me. I also don't believe Patsy killed her, so that leaves Burke.
Delete-J
Why on earth would Burke say he sneaked downstairs that night if he'd been downstairs murdering his sister? He wasn't even asked if he'd sneaked downstairs, he offered that information with no prompting. I see no reason to assume he did anything more than sneak downstairs to mess around with his new toy and then sneak back upstairs and go to bed.
DeleteHis prints on the bowl meaning nothing because he lived in that house and had access to every item in it 24/7. And the lack of John's prints mean nothing because prints don't always show up.
If that's the basis for BDI, then our BDI's have nothing, nada. Neither do the supersleuths from the CBS crock.
Now if those gingerbread houses were made with fruit cocktail that would be more interesting, right? cherries...grapes...pineapple
Delete"He stares at a picture of the bowl of pineapple and acts like a kid who just got caught before saying he doesn’t know what it is."
DeleteSpeculation. Opinion. Not evidence of anything.
"Burke was up and downstairs around the time she would have needed to be killed."
"JonBenet might have ingested the pineapple as early as 4.30 p.m", refer to my post on previous page for source details.
"I fully believe Patsy was aware of what happened and helped stage which eliminates JDI for me."
Your personal belief means absolutely nothing in regards to truth.....no offence intended, just stating the obvious.
"I also don't believe Patsy killed her, so that leaves Burke."
Refer to my above response.
Many people don't believe the earth is a sphere......your point?
So, all you've got as far as evidence is concerned is Burke's fingerprints on the bowl, but as we don't know when the bowl of pineapple was prepared, and JB's prints aren't on the bowl along with Burke's, what does that leave you with? Patsy's prints are also on the bowl, and you conced you don't believe she murdered JonBenet. I rest my case.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete*concede.
DeleteGeez, Doc, is there a way to add an "Edit" function?! :P
I have the same problem, D. And no, I can't find any. But there IS a Preview function and that does help in catching typos.
DeleteI'm posting too much on here, but want to turn the tables. The BDI theory has an actual logical way that JB came downstairs that night with her probably going to look for Burke or hearing something downstairs and checking what was going on.
ReplyDeleteI know Inq and the PDI’s believe JB wet her bed and the head blow happened. But to the JDI group…….let me set the stage. John and Patsy get home from the White’s with 2 sleeping children. They bring the kids upstairs to bed and go their room to get ready for bed. I don’t need to all the staging, but what I want to know from all of you is from the time that John and Patsy go to their room, up until the head blow, I want to hear your theories. You all dismiss the pineapple bowl , so you are in the hot seat. GO
-J
I see my name in bright lights above so I must respond. I'm with Zach on this. But first I'd like to clear up a few things you just said J. I don't really know if JB wet her bed - there are conflicting accounts on this. More of the folklore of this case. Steve Thomas says yes, others say they smelled urine but the sheets were not wet. Conceivably she could have, then Patsy was up and doing the laundry late, adding to her stress level having to do laundry on top of everything else to get ready for the trip. Favorite white blanket with pink nightie clinging to it suggests blanket was in the drier but again, part of doing laundry that night or a different night. But in any event, John says he carried a sleeping JB in from the car. Not two sleeping kids. Patsy says this as well and Burke verifies JB fell asleep in the car on the way home. Burke says he and his father stayed up later putting together his complex toy. If John then walks Burke up to bed and gets in bed around 10:15 Burke was not up past that time if he was walked up to bed.
ReplyDeleteNow I know we have been talking about Burke saying he snuck downstairs later but did he ever say this on the record anywhere? I've checked high and low for where he says this - was it only to Dr. Phil? Did he wait 20 years to say it? How do we know Burke was "up and downstairs around the time she would have needed to be killed"? as you said above. Even the ME doesn't know the exact time of death. Does Burke say anywhere exactly what time he was up later?
Because people have said JB sometimes went into Burke's room after she wet the bed or just to get in bed with him to stay warm the assumption is she may have gotten up, found him not in bed and gone downstairs with her pillow finding him there (during his "sneak" time). But there is no fact to substantiate this. She could have gotten up after being put to bed asleep, and taken herself to the bathroom - and either heard Patsy up - or Patsy got her up to use the bathroom. That is just as plausible as Burke being the motive for JB to rise up out of bed and go downstairs. We know she ingested fruit, we just don't know who was present when she did so if anyone.
J, you're not exhausting, this case is :)
ReplyDeleteThere is simply not one shred of real evidence pointing to Burke's involvement. And given his "confession" to Dr. Phil that he snuck downstairs to play with his new toy, that's evidence consistent with innocence, not guilt. What kind of fool would he have to be to offer a story like that if he'd been downstairs committing murder?
DeleteAnd we haven't even gotten to the truly ludicrous "cover-up" that the Ramseys presumably staged to "protect" him -- instead of simply calling for an ambulance on finding their daughter unconscious.
or the time spent between headblow and strangulation, which would have been better spent by performing CPR or calling for help
DeleteWhy would he offer up that he was downstairs? This is easy....he magically talks for the very first time publicly the week before a show names him as the killer. saying he was downstairs would account for any evidence CBS came up with. You just hate on CBS like you do anybody that disagrees with your theory.
DeleteWhy would John Ramsey admit to holding the flashlight? There isn't a smoking gun pointing to anybody, so I guess we are in the same boat
-J
"The BDI theory has an actual logical way that JB came downstairs that night with her probably going to look for Burke or hearing something downstairs and checking what was going on."
DeleteI love the way BDIs always point out the logical part of their scenario, without ever going into the absolutely ILLOGICAL part of their theory. Yes it is logical JonBenet may have gone downstairs looking for her brother. It is even reasonable to suggest he could have hit her in a fit of anger. What is NOT logical, is that the parents of this dying child then decided to end her life using a crude, home made torture device and follow it up with a ransom note.....even though their intention was to stage a homicidal sex crime, not a kidnapping!!!
For me this murder was absolutely not premeditated or intentional. Therefore whatever happened that night happened in a fit of rage. Before the staging could ever take place the head blow had to happen. No head blow, means no lifeless JB which means NO STAGING! The staging is illogical regardless of who did it. Just like you think 2 parents covering for a child is illogical, I think John Ramse becoming Liam Neeson in Taken is illogical. It's even worse that some of you think John Ramsey PLANNED the ridiculous stage job along with a 3 page ransom note. The head blow and the garrote being 2 completely different acts makes ZERO SENSE if done by same person. BTW I still haven't heard an explanation as to how John got her out of bed that night....just a small little detail the JDI community glosses over.
Delete-J
"The head blow and the garrote being 2 completely different acts makes ZERO SENSE if done by same person"
DeleteOh come on J, I've covered this several times in my theory.
What makes no sense, is to cover up an accident by making it look like a crime! A murder is GUARANTEED to involve a lengthy police investigation, unlike an accident! And why would parents, who are looking to protect their son, ultimately draw attention to the two males in the house by staging a sexual attack? Care to answer that for me?
http://rense.com/general11/benet.htm
ReplyDeleteDocG, just read your response on my comment on last thread.
"Five of the six experts hired by Boulder law enforcement agreed that it was UNlikely Patsy wrote the note. The holdout was the CBI expert, who saw signs that she could have written it, but nothing that would hold up in court.
The "experts" who decided Patsy wrote it were hired by Darnay Hoffman for the express purpose of coming to precisely that conclusion. As I've demonstrated they were both seriously biased and also incompetent."
Who is Darnay Hoffamn (I guess I could google, lol), and why do you consider this person not trustworthy?
I believe you are performing your own handwriting analysis, based on what is available online. From what I have seen, it is not a lot of writing. It sounds like the housekeeper handed in more samples. And you don't know what else was handed in by other people too. It could be a lot more than we know.
Why would the first DA take PR to the Grand Jury, the note being one of the biggest deals, and have all his experts, say, 'no, Patsy did not write the note.'
It makes more sense, that IF the DA brought Patsy to the Grand Jury, then the court there experts WOULD likely confirm Patsy wrote the note.
You don't know what you don't know. I know people like to think everything is leaked. But not always. A lot of things in a Grand Jury do stay secret. Because sometimes we hear about it a lot later on, and find out.
You tell us you don't know who Darnay Hoffman is and yet you have the nerve to tell me "I don't know what I don't know?"
DeleteThe link you've provided is interesting, but the basics are hardly new. Yes, Linda the housekeeper decided that Patsy is the one who killed JonBenet. Purely on the basis of her own assumptions, grounded in what emerges from her testimony as deep-seated resentment.
The handwriting reports she referenced are precisely the ones I've analyzed in detail on this blog. They were written by people hired to literally nail Patsy to the wall. And the person who hired them, Darnay Hoffman, is the same person who served as Linda's lawyer.
If you want to comment authoritatively on this case you actually have to learn something about it.
True, I do not know all the facts, so thanks for explaining that.
DeleteBut aren't grand juries supposed to be secret? So how do you know what they analyzed there? Did they release everything?
Bottom line J, I think you are going to have to give up the pineapple principle. And if you decide to, there are other ways to make your case for BDI.
ReplyDeleteBottom line is I won't give up the Pineapple with all due respect Inq. There is zero proof that it wasn't his bowl and even Ms D at one point conceded it was probably his bowl.
Delete-J
I think the answer is that JonBenet was not asleep when they got home. She and Burke had a bedtime snack, and there was no fighting because there was plenty to around.
DeleteGS
Yep. I believe Burke probably prepared the pineapple - only on the basis of his fingerprints being on the bowl. The sore point is, we know JB preferred fruit as a snack, not Burke. So, logic tells us that JB would have been the most likely to have prepared the snack herself as it was a favourite of hers, but there are no prints to indicate this, and we know she couldn't open the refrigerator door. So.....Burke possibly prepared the pineapple sometime between breakfast and dinner at the Whites - perhaps for JB herself - she ate a piece before being summoned upstairs to get ready for their dinner appointment, and the rest is history. Why this is deemed implausible by you is anyone's guess, when this scenario is every bit as likely as the one you propose, except my own doesn't involve a psychopathic, homicidal child with parents concocting a cover up of truly epic proportions.
DeleteI thought the point of the pineapple was that it showed it had been eaten AFTER dinner at the White's, when the Ramseys say JonBenet was asleep.
DeleteGS
That's the general consensus, but I recently read she may have ingested it as early as 4.30 p.m, which would certainly be a game changer for the BDIs who rely on the pineapple as a motive for murder.
DeleteIt is not a motive Ms D. It is timeframe.
DeleteIf JB ingested the pineapple as early as 4.30 p.m, your time frame is way off also. So, either way, the pineapple means nothing. I am truly of the opinion at this point that the pineapple is nothing more than a red herring
DeleteOkay, I'll back off. No use going in circles over it.
ReplyDeleteI'm a long-time lurker, introducing myself to comment.
ReplyDeleteThanks, DocG, for hosting this site. I'm a bit like you in that I don't understand my pre-occupation with JonBenet but I keep being drawn back to the case. I'm also mostly convinced by your thesis, but honestly sometimes think the six-midget-circus-troupe makes as much sense as anything in this horrible case.
Also a shout-out to MsD, I'm in Melbourne as well!
I have a question, and a few comments I'd like to add to the discussion.
The Radar Online video that Inquisitive posted a link to (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP_CybgVxxw but YouTube is now telling me this video is unavailable)
- the opening shots that show the (front?) door, there are marks and scratches around the handle - are these the marks that Hoffmann-Pugh said had been left when JR tried to get into the house after PR locked him out? If so, I think it shoots to pieces the case folk-lore that PR put all her energy into keeping up the appearance of a perfect family. On the other hand, it also lends credence to the idea that the family was happy to let small repair jobs go unattended, so maybe a broken window frame in the basement wouldn't have caught anyone's attention.
My second point is about the discussion of whether or not JR fits the paedophile profile. I'm like other commenters who come to this from the perspective of being an abuse survivor myself. I remember participating in a support group information session where someone spoke about data which showed that 10% of perpetrators of CSA (childhood sexual abuse) are responsible for abusing 90% of victims. So while most survivors have been abused by paedophiles as conventionally understood, 90% of perpetrators in fact don't fit that profile - they are responsible for abusing only one or a small number of individuals. The high profile cases - the Jimmy Savilles, Boston priests, and others, which shape public perception about CSA, only describe 10% of perpetrators. I'm afraid I can't remember the source of the data, but I vaguely remember it being the U.K. police. And I realise it makes the data pretty useless without a source, but I thought I'd mention it in case any other readers (including lurkers!) know more about this.
Also want to weigh in on the question of BR abusing JBR. It is true that sibling CSA is under-reported and not well understood. I'm more willing than DocG to accept that BR was abusing his sister - particularly if he was a victim of CSA himself, it wouldn't be behaviour coming from his own curiosity but would be a form of acting out, so it would be consistent with his developmental stage. The problem I have with the BDI-and-parents-covered-it-up thesis is that, for someone with JR's wealth and connections, a few discreet phone calls to lawyers, expensive clinics, and law enforcement would have seen BR sent into treatment and no more said about it. None of us would have heard about this case.
That's me having said my bit for now.
- b&b
Thanks for your comments, b&b. I've never heard that story about John breaking in after Patsy locked him out. Is that from Linda's book? There was one door lock that showed some damage yes, but the door and lock had been repaired.
DeleteAnd no, it's not credible that Linda and her husband would not have noticed a broken window. In fact Linda denied any knowledge of it, and accused Patsy of lying about it. (Of course, since all her venom was directed at Patsy, she never mentions the source of that story, which was John.)
As far as abuse is concerned, it's always seemed clear to me that a great many abusers have no prior history of abuse, and often focus on just one victim. There have been too many such reports from too many women to doubt that.
Hey breadandbutterfly - wonderful to see a fellow "Melbournian"! Speaking of "Burke", you'd be familiar with the horror that occurred in our main street of the same name yesterday (actually, different spelling - "Bourke"). I hope you weren't personally affected by it.
DeleteI do recall reading about pry marks on a door (kitchen, I think?), and I believe that initially, John and Patsy had explained them away, but later on (like many details), John used the marks to point to a possible intruder.....I'm trying to find the information now, but so far, no luck. There's a lot to weed through! :D
You're right, Ms D, that name does have an extra horrifying resonance for us at the moment. My partner was in the CBD when it happened, cycling across town. He was actually pretty shaken up, sounds like everyone in the city was terrified, awful day. I hope you and yours are all safe.
DeleteDocG, I feel a bit silly because I think I've muddled three events in my head - LHP's story in her book about PR and JR fighting, JR's story about breaking into the cellar, and the pry marks on one of the external doors that were noted by Sg Whitson as evidence of an intruder (according to a Newsweek special report Barbara Fernie told the police she'd seen the marks before the 25th; according to PMPT it was LHP who told the police a metal plate had fallen off the door jamb months earlier and left those marks).
Think I got muddled because my reaction to the video was to become super annoyed with myself, didn't realise how strongly influenced I've been by the constant assertions that PR was obsessed with image, couldn't bear to look anything other than perfect to those around her. That was not the home of an image obsessed woman! It looked clean enough as far as hygiene, but very messy or (as I like to call it in my home) comfortably lived in.
- b&b
I agree, b&b. The Ramsey's house - looking very much like a home where children live, and not a museum, or a remotely sterile environment - shows me that Patsy clearly wasn't as image obsessed as the media - and some posters here - would have us believe.
DeleteI think the blow to the head occurred in JonBenet's bathroom or bedroom. It could have been accidental, or on purpose to either get JonBenet to be quiet or as punishment.
ReplyDeleteIt could have occurred while she was being washed up after apparently being sick in the night, both wetting and defecating her nightgown and the white blanket (the feces on the candy box may have come from the blanket or nightgown having been tossed and landing on top of it).
Patsy did not realize how severe JonBenet's initial injury was, and she lays her naked from her bath, back into her bed.
She takes the soiled blanket and nightgown that JonBenet originally was wearing down to the washer in the basement.
She checks back in the bedroom, and JonBenet is gasping for air. Terrified, Patsy sits outside JonBenet's bedroom door on the carpet, crying and praying that JonBenet will suddenly revive. But her condition is deteriorating rapidly and she's in the throes of death.
The hemp rope fibers in JonBenet's bed show that the strangulation was first contemplated with the rope found in John Andrew's bedroom, but the rope is thick and hard to tie, so the idea is abandoned.
Patsy carries JonBenet down to the basement, her hair brushing along the garland that is wound around the staircase.
First, she redresses her.
All of JonBenet's good clean panties are packed for the trip, upstairs. It would be easier to find some panties in the wrapped gifts in the basement, rather than to have to dig through the packed luggage, so she tears the wrapping paper, looking for the new size 12 Bloomies meant for her niece. She grabs John's sweater out of a laundry basket and wipes JonBenet down once more.
Patsy dresses JonBenet in her in the clean clothes that had been left in the drier; the white top with the star and a pair of Burke's thermal underwear. She ties up JonBenet's hair.
Realizing that John will be waking up in a short time, she strangles her daughter with the garrote fashioned from materials at hand, a cord from the back of a painting there in the basement and her own paintbrush.
There is a piece of duct tape on the back of the painting, too, and she tapes JonBenet's mouth back to being closed, then drags her body to hide it in the wine cellar. Removes the clean white blanket with the pink nightgown stuck to it, and wraps her daughter's body in it.
Shaken over the tragic event that has just occurred, she opens the basement window, and lights a cigarette. Is she *really* dead? It can't be. What will she tell John? She tests with the cigarette to make sure that JonBenet is really dead.
Her mind flashes back to the story of the missing Phoebe White, and Bill McReynold's daughter, the book McReynold's wife wrote, about a basement, and the movie she had just seen - "Ransom".
It would take every ounce of her strength and a test of all her talent, but she would never admit fault in any way, shape, or form. She did not do it. And if only just once, John would wake up and help with JonBenet, this never would have happened.
GS
And " I will be forgiven because Christ is my savior.... I have already been saved by the cross. It was an accident and I wont be around much longer anyway".
DeleteVery good btw GS, I have JDI but PR comments and behaviors have bothered me so much that I have come back to explore her role. Not sure if John was involved after the fact or told after the fact. It is also interesting that they had separate attorneys, as if he knew and legally needed to get separate ones. Did PR break the basement window?
DeleteAlso, maybe the cracked crab made her sick? It was odd that she almost took offense to the Whites saving on JonBenet cracked crab.
DeleteInteresting fantasy, GS. Based on zero real evidence. As are just about all theories of this case.
DeleteYou have got to fantasize in this case and go where the evidence leads you. Yes, I mentioned numerous pieces of actual evidence in my story.
DeleteIn Patsy's mind, God knew she didn't mean to do it. In fact, she was trying her best to make sure John got his "rest". She was trying her best to make sure everyone had a wonderful Christmas. She'd done everything she could for JonBenet, and look how she'd been repaid.
The first thing she thought of was how John would react to the death of a second daughter. The second thing she thought of was how the headlines would read.
GS
Could we atleast abandon the myth that JonBenet was put to bed in the white shirt with the star? She ate dinner in that shirt. There is no kid around that can eat dinner in a white shirt and not get food on it. That stuff had to have been re-washed that night.
DeleteI would bet my "eye teeth" that she was put to bed in the pink nightgown, and had been up eating pineapple with Burke before bedtime that night.
GS
Also, obviously I think we are all aware that JonBenet's clothes had been changed. It makes no sense(imagine that) that PR would put her in boys underwear and leave her shirt on from the night. She would have put to bed in either her PJ's or the outfit she was going to wear on the plane. When my son and I travel early, I will put him to bed in comfy clothes and not his pj's so I dont have to wake him to change his clothes. I like your theory that most likely, she was redressed with what was available in the basement.
DeleteYou put it out there GS. I admire anyone who puts it all out there - J, Keiser, GS, Hercule, EG, Zed, many others. Doc as well - the original putter out there! Keeps it all interesting.
ReplyDeleteJ, I'm with you. The pineapple does not necessarily prove BDI but it's one data point that when taken all together with everything else you (and all of us) have outlined, makes it a significant detail.
ReplyDeleteWhy would Burke admit he went downstairs if he was guilty, either to fix his toy and/or eat pineapple?
Because when you're told to lie about something, it's helpful to stick as close to the truth as possible to avoid slipping up. This is well known to anyone who has ever lied or been forced to lie.
John coached him on what to say, the same as he did with Patsy. Is John going to try to rewrite the whole night for Burke's nine year old brain? Unlikely. More plausible is that he told Burke to just say everything as it happened until a certain point (head blow). Then he was likely sent to bed and told to stay there. All Burke would have to remember and lie about is that he did not hit his sister. He went downstairs to fix his toy, maybe ate, then went upstairs to bed.
Additionally, John could have been worried that a neighbor would have reported seeing the kitchen light on or a flashlight.
E
There was no reason for Burke to lie about sneaking downstairs because he was never asked about it. No need to bring it up at all, and if he'd actually done something down there he didn't want anyone to know about, he'd never have mentioned it at all.
DeleteWould any of you folks turn one of your parents in to law enforcement at age 9? I would think it would be rather instinctual for Burke to want to protect his parents and not "rat them out".
DeleteTalk about not wanting to lose a family member a second time, everyone says that in regard to Burke. How about Burke not wanting to lose his parents? What happens to him then?
GS
Kids wouldn't necessarily intentionally "rat a parent out", it's just very difficult for a child of that age to know how to fully keep such a secret without inadvertently spilling the beans, no matter what the consequences might be. I used to work with children - they're terrible liars, even the ones who are experts at it! There's certainly no way they could fool those who are trained to spot deception.
DeleteYou mean like the big deal the "experts" made about Burke's reaction to being questioned about sex, his picture he drew, and the bowl of pineapple in the photograph. They all thought he was showing inappropriate reactions, while to a lot of us, it seemed innocuous.
DeletePurely subjective. Based on "feelings".
GS
Kids wouldn't necessarily intentionally "rat a parent out", it's just very difficult for a child of that age to know how to fully keep such a secret without inadvertently spilling the beans, no matter what the consequences might be.
DeleteSorry Ms D but I was a much better liar as a kid then as an adult, especially if it involved any discipline from my father. I would go into stealth mode. This is another, as you like to call it, another straw man argument, very similar to the one you and others have put forth often about the adult male being the most likely to have been molesting JBR and that 10 year olds just dont do that because they play Nintendo. Statistics say otherwise.
O.K, you like statistics, KS? Compare the stats of a child killing his sibling accidentally and the parents staging a crime scene to cover it up, with the stats of a pedophile father killing his child, then post them here, and we'll see what the stats tell us. Deal?
DeleteOne more thing, Keiser: when you lied as a kid, did you have to fool the authorities, along with Law Enforcement? Or did you lie to people who weren't trained to spot deception? Because it makes a huge difference, as I'm sure you know.
DeleteGS: "You mean like the big deal the "experts" made about Burke's reaction to being questioned about sex, his picture he drew, and the bowl of pineapple in the photograph. They all thought he was showing inappropriate reactions, while to a lot of us, it seemed innocuous."
I have read the contrary - that most psychologists feel his response was appropriate given the circumstances. And clearly LE did too as they never investigated him further. As far as "feelings" go, scroll back and see how many comments you have written over the months about Patsy's alleged guilt based solely on what you deem to be her inappropriate attire, behaviour or responses.
But law enforcement asked his parents about his whereabouts that night - I specifically remember that John said that he had gone downstairs to help him fix the toy. And the child psychologist interviewed him a week after the murder - im sure he was asked what he had done that night?
ReplyDeleteWe may not have reports and evidence available to us, but I refuse to believe that no one, boulder police, FBI, the grand jury, didn't ask Burke about exactly what he had done that night.
Until the Dr Phil show, Anonymous, Burke had always maintained he stayed in bed all night. He never mentioned sneaking downstairs to play with a toy before then, iirc. That's also when the flashlight nobody knew the origin of made it's first "appearance".
Delete"Also, maybe the cracked crab made her sick? It was odd that she almost took offense to the Whites saving on JonBenet cracked crab."
ReplyDeleteAs if the case wasn't complex or confusing enough, you want to add the extremely remote possibility that she got food poisoning from the cracked crab into the mix?!?
I was just entertaining GS theory that she possibly got sick on her stomach. The Ramsey's avoid everything important but put detail in random things, like the bat looking odd or out of place or drawers open. The cracked crab was something the brought attention to. Important, maybe not. But, Thank you though. Glad I could inspire you to make a first? post?
ReplyDeleteK1234, I have read wuite a bit of the statements and agree. The Ramnesia about both big and small details, on even mundane things was puzzling. Or what conflicted. That many years of marriage I think most would know if your spouse smoked or not. Or how they take their tea.
Delete"Quite a bit" - darn, thought I fixed that typo before hitting reply
DeleteOh for Pete's sake....are we now suggesting that JB got a bad case of food poisoning so her parents garroted her and staged a sexual assault/kidnapping-that-never-happened rather than take her to the hospital? Besides the obvious flaws with this tall tale, is there a good reason no one else in the house came down with food poisoning after eating the cracked crab?!
ReplyDeleteCome on.....I mean, seriously??? Food poisoning?!
No, but I do remember just about every Christmas back then that the "flu" was going around.
DeleteWhen I read Dr. Beuf's notes, and the antibiotics he prescribed for her, "I knew in my heart" that little JonBenet had an out of control yeast infection that was making her very sick.
There is a crime scene photo out there that depicts what appears to be tiny blisters on the palm of JonBenet's hand. Yeast infection.
GS
I wasn't offended by the speculation of Jonbenet may have gotten sick to her stomach as you seem to be about it Ms D.
DeleteIt could be an explanation for the change of clothes, or changing stories of her clothing that night.
I don't have the autopsy report handy if he found any signs of recent vomiting in the girl's mouth or esophagus
Nor do I know if she was taking any oral antibiotics at the time of her death.
Irrc, both Mrs White and Patsy said Jonbenet didn't eat much at the Whites.
I do know that oral antibiotics are normally Rxd to be taken WITH food, and enough of it, or one can end up being sick to their stomach.
"I knew in my heart".
DeleteAs I said in an earlier post, GS, much of your "evidence" is based on a feeling, an assumption or a comment/look of Patsy's you don't feel is appropriate. This only further muddies the waters.
My suggestion would be to draw your conclusions based on the known evidence rather than a "feeling", especially when you're prone to confirmation bias.
Ms D, I was "echoing" the sentiments of the expert way back when who said "she knew in her heart", or felt in her heart that JonBenet was a victim of sexual abuse. I was being facetious there, though I know its hard to tell on forums if one is serious or joking.
DeleteAlso, folks, when I said "sick" I meant diarrhea, which can be caused by antibiotics. k1234 is the one who suggested "food poisoning".
And to add, that antibiotic use then was in the height of being over-prescribed in the 90s, and lots of docs had 1 or 2 refills automatically on prescriptions for resistant infections.
Ladies, please don't tell me you've never experienced a yeast infection immediately following use of antibiotics!
GS
GS
Apologies, GS - it is difficult to detect sarcasm in the written word!
DeleteYes, it isn't uncommon to experience a yeast infection after a course of antibiotics, but I really think this new yeast infection idea is a little far fetched. Certainly the notion it somehow led to a violent outburst that ultimately led to her death!
If she had even the slightest bit of food poisoning, last thing she would've done is take a bite of pineapple.
ReplyDeleteIf she had the flu, she wouldn't be wanting to eat cracked crab either.
Some of these theories are on the verge of jumping the shark.
Again, to clarify, I was referring to diarrhea, or encopresis, and trying to be nice about it by saying she was sick. Which I do believe, she was chronically experiencing a loss of bowel control for whatever reason. I suspected antibiotic over-use.
DeleteThat is not to say that stomach flu usually hits hard - like in ons minute you're fine, the next minute you're sicker than the proverbial dog, and holiday dinner gatherings are the prime time for this stuff to be going around. And yes, most of the time "stomach flu" really is a case of food poisoning from dishes sitting out for hours on the table.
But it was not my idea that she was vomiting.
I wondered if JonBenet didn't wake up crying and making a commotion, and Patsy, wanting to make sure she didn't wake up the rest of the family who need their rest for the next morning's trip, got a little more rough with her than usual.
And Burke and John, both being accustomed to noises from JonBenet and Patsy in the middle of the night, heard nothing unusual and slept right through it; especially John who specifically didn't want to be disturbed and "hence" took the Melatonin.
GS
GS
Correction: he "claimed" to have taken a Melatonin.....there's no reason to believe he actually did, because John lies a lot, often times about seemingly about mundane things. At one point, he said he took "a" Melatonin that night, on another occasion he said he took "a couple" of them, which suggests he might be bullshitting altogether, as John Ramsey is prone to do. My guess is that he invented this in order to reinforce his story of sleeping heavily all night.
DeleteYes, he could have lied about that, rather than admit that Patsy getting up with JonBenet in the night was something that he and Burke had learned to "tune out" and not pay any attention to, as it was nothing unusual.
DeleteGS
GS - I have seen those blisters on her hands. And there may have been some pustules on her face. It had some small discussion here awhile back. I think some thought maybe due to fingernail polish remover.
ReplyDeleteI questioned that it might be on the lines of a herpes simplex outbreak. No idea if the blisters were cultured to see what it was.
It didn't appear "yeast" to me, like you would see with cradle cap, or in areas where skin folds are. Who knows, maybe a dermatologist will chime in and blast us with even bringing it up!
I'm personally experienced with a yeast infection causing itchy, fluid-filled blisters on the palm of my hand.
DeleteI can remember 30 years ago a couple telling in church that their child had been misdiagnosed in the 1980s with cancer that had gone to the lymph nodes when what it really was, was yeast.
Many doctors only look for bacterial or viral infections, never considering fungal or yeast as the culprit.
GS
I've never heard that "cradle cap" or scalp eczema was caused by yeast. but the palm of the hand, tends to be a little damper and darker from perspiration; an ideal area for yeast to grow.
DeleteYeast infection from anti-biotic use explains the vaginitis and diarrhea, and the feeling of having to pee all the time.
GS
In other words, these symptoms do not automatically point to sexual abuse, the way JDIs and BDIs "feel".
DeleteGS
How about a vaginal opening twice the normal size for a six year old and an eroded hymen? Six medical experts consulted by BPD in 1997 thought those were pretty clear signs of sexual abuse. That's the basis for most JDIs conviction, not vaginitis, not a "feeling" - facts.
DeleteCC
CC, if all that is in fact true, it could be explained by the insertion of a vaginal suppository to help with inflammation and itching. Available over-the-counter, no prescription required. And I have only read since I was a child that many things can cause a tear in the hymen, such as riding bicycles or swinging on the rope of a tire swing. Lots of things.
DeleteGS
It was eroded, not torn - quite a different process. Please tell me you're not seriously suggesting that the possible insertion of a vaginal suppository not much bigger than a lima bean stretched that child's vaginal opening to twice normal size? And that six preeminent pathologists and child abuse experts were fooled by that?
DeleteCC
They are inserted with a finger, as I recall some of the experts only saw evidence of digital penetration?
DeleteGS
Also some disagreement as to what is normal size for a vaginal opening. I mean, wouldn't every child on earth have to be examined, reason or no reason, to determine what is the normal size of a 6 year old's vaginal opening? Probably mostly a matter of genetics.
DeleteThe reason some women have to have C-section delivery of their babies is because some don't have the ability to expand. Others born with wider hips and pelvis. We're talking a matter of millimeters here at any rate.
GS
Actually when Monistat and other antifungals were deregulated in 1995 they came - and still do - with a little plastic device for insertion; much more hygienic. But yes, the medicos believed the stretching to have been due to digital penetration.
DeleteCC
Believe whatever anecdotal evidence suits your theory, GS. I'll stick with the six medical experts.
DeleteCC
Interesting read right here on the antibiotic Suprax - note diarrhea as a side effect.
Deletehttp://www.supraxcopay.com/
GS
Well, Jeez, CC. From what I've wrote, I see nothing that disagrees with the 6 medical experts, who said, yeah, it could be sexual abuse, or it could be something else! It might be indicative of...I didn't think any of them definitely said nothing but sexual abuse could have caused this.
DeleteGS
Their findings weren't the least ambiguous. They looked at slides, tissue samples and photos from the autopsy and stated unequivocally that there was clear evidence of chronic sexual abuse.
DeleteCC
GS - yes, cradle cap can be from yeast, candida.
DeleteI was surprised to learned years ago that adults can get cradle cap when my maw got it after she stopped for awhile going to the beauty salon. She never washed her own hair in all the years I knew her, it was always done at the salon. So my mom took her to the dr and...yep, yeast infection. I knew we needed a dermatologist on here, lol.
Ms D - just now saw your comment in Part 4 and replied. We're definitely in a group no one would want to be in.
ReplyDeleteLadies, accept me into your group. I DO know of what you speak! I would ask you to consider the role your mother played. I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the family dynamics in the Ramsey family, from my own experience. Please, never think I do not have empathy and more for those in the group that no one wants to be in.
DeleteGS
GS - the group I speak of is that we both have a facial paralysis. Ms D has lived with hers for 10 years. I have lived with mine since I was 18.
DeleteAlso, you would have to hit "load more" to see my reply about Bell's Palsy/facial paralysis. I still am startled at my own reflection when I'm out where there are lots of mirrors. yikes.
DeleteI just came across your response on pt 4, diamondlil. I missed it twice before, the "Load More" function doesn't always work properly. I agree with Doc - it's a pain in the ass! ;)
DeleteI really can relate, diamond. It was 2006 when I contracted BP. I woke up one morning and presumed, as did my family, that I'd had a stroke. For four months I had no movement whatsoever in the left side of my face. Over the next year, some sensation slowly came back - along with a rare side effect called Synkinesis.....yay! Basically, when my nerves regenerated, they got their wires crossed and as a result, smiling causes involuntary eye movements and vice versa, amongst other embarrassing and uncomfortable facial "ticks" when talking which caused me to go from the life of the party to a virtual recluse. I can't purse my lips, so - like yourself - that leaves out whistling, and certain sounds are more difficult to pronounce (B and P being two of the letters that are particularly difficult, which is quite ironic, as the name of the condition starts with both of those letters!) I had to wear an eye patch for six months because I couldn't close my eye, along with needing to constantly squirt a lubricant into my eye, as my tear ducts were also paralyzed. I used to work as a promotions model, so I lost my job immediately - I could no longer smile, talk properly or emote. It improved over the years, but I've had several relapses, and each time, I never heal to the same point I was at before. It is deeply depressing and has changed my life immensely, so I truly can commiserate with you, lil.....it's not fun when you can't express with your facial expressions what you're feeling inside, is it? I don't think I ever realized just how much I used my face until I contracted Bells Palsy!
It probably explains why I now spend so much time on the internet.....in typing, I can still express myself verbally, but without the need for talking. Especially now, as I had Botox injected into my jaw to help ease the pain, but it backfired and I can barely open my mouth and it has caused a rather unfortunate speech impediment - a lisp (thank goodness that will be temporary at least....I hope!) I had Botox injected into my eyelid to stop the "winking" a few months ago, and for the most part the effects were just wonderful - except sleeping was quite a chore, that eye just didn't want to close properly! But, as a result, my dr won't repeat the procedure, sadly. It seems there is no "cure", and - probably like yourself - I've searched high and low for one. At this point in time, regenerating dead nerves is still virtually impossible.
DeleteI really do feel for you, diamondlil.
Apologies for hijacking the thread, guys and gals.....now, back to JonBenet! :D
No need for apologies, Ms. D. It's painful to learn about your disability though. I wish we lived in a better world where good people didn't have to suffer and innocent children would never be abused.
DeleteSounds to me like you've been really brave, and are making the best of your difficult situation. More power to you.
Oh Ms D, yes, I can truly empathize. I however had no pain or loss of sensation, but I do get terrible headaches at times on the same side.
DeleteI also have trouble with certain syllables and chewing on that side isn't great.
I have deterioration of the eye surface as the lid doesn't close properly.
When I posted earlier about that surgery I had...well, they cut a nerve from my ankle area and then ran it under my "good" side, then did a half of a facelift, then sewed up a corner of my eye. Surgery was over 7 hours, recovery was longer, as I puked for over 7 hours. Didn't know for years and years later that I cannot tolerate narcotics, opiates, or synthetic opiates. The second surgery was going to be a muscle graft, to hook the new nerve to.
Forget it, I could not go thru with the vomiting. That was in my early 20's. I got so much grief from my own family for not having the 2nd one.
People come up to me that have recovered and said they got steroids. I was never offered that. So, yes, depressing.
Because of the stares, the questions - "were you in a wreck? did you have a stroke? It looks like someone hit you in the face with a shovel" since 1983...I had it out with a counselor one time when my first husband after 15 years divorced me. I was trying to explain that I don't have the opportunity to have gainful employment. He decided to play the race card and said since he was a black man blah blah and I said "put me in a room of all white people or all black people and I'm going to stand out". Kids will try to mimic my lopsided face, follow me around in stores just gaping at me.
But like I said in the previous blog post, then I do have those that stop me in a store and pray. Or tell me try healing crystals, I was in Hawaii going up to a waterfall and a woman caught up with me to tell me that. At the Boston airport and a Mexican janitor with very broken English tried to tell me to go to Mexico and get help. The only time in my life where strangers did not approach me and say "what happened to you?!" were my trips to the UK.
The ones that pray for me and lay hands on me for healing (all unsolicited) have been black people. Just happened again last week at Walgreens. I am receptive because they are about love and faith.
The only positive I guess, it that side doesn't wrinkle, lol.
Lots of downsides, I've lived in 2 states and have an associate's in applied science and folks really don't want to hire others that look freaky to them.
Also, when I'm out in public and enjoying my day and then a crass person will invariably ask about my face vs being curiously kind about it, I just think of Christina Aguilera's "You're beautiful, no matter what they say, words can't bring me down". Before my paralysis, strangers would only comment about my hair positively. I'm a natural redhead. Well wait, I still would get asked if I dyed it! Gosh, people are rude! And strangers want to touch my hair...where are the boundaries.
DeleteThank you, Doc. :)
Deletediamondlil, I'm so sorry! When I am not talking, no one can tell I've had facial paralysis, so besides the first year - when many people would ask me about my "stroke" - I don't get those unfortunate, embarrassing and intrusive questions or the "laying on of hands" (I really don't think I'd take the latter too graciously, being a non believer). Let's hope that something might come of stem cell research in the way of nerve regeneration....Bells Palsy is little understood, and very little research has been done. In the big scheme of things, it is not a life threatening ailment and unless you're faced with it, I don't think anyone can truly appreciate just how devastating it is to one's psyche. Big hugs, lil xxx
Folks - we know Fleet didn't see JBR in the wine cellar when he opened door/searched it, rationale being he couldn't find the light switch. According to Doc's "A Scenario" (7/22/12), sounds like you think that JBR was already in there at the time Fleet searched? Does anyone think she could have been moved in there by John during his "missing hour" that morning? Where does everyone stand on this issue today? Just curious, as I know there have been tests on the darkness of that room, time of day, angle of the door when opened, etc. This has always seemed strange to me...
ReplyDeleteYes, it's occurred to me that she might have been moved into that room after Fleet looked in there. Also, she might have been hidden in a corner, under a blanket, where she couldn't easily be spotted. John later claimed she was right there in front of him, but we have no reason to believe anything he's said.
DeleteTo be helpful, one can still view the youtube video shot by Radar by googling "youtube JonBenet Ramsey never before scene footage." I'm not big on http addresses as they do get posted, then disappear. So once you google the above, then send the video to your address box and you can view it over and over.
ReplyDeleteSo in looking at it again several other things I noticed that may not have any relevance to anything - just interesting, since we are provided a guided tour of the house after after crime scene tape was applied (and a gloved hand is seen removing the tape). I much prefer this to a guided tour of an empty house with a narration by Lou Smit since what we were seeing was subject to his interpretation. Down at the area near the base of the spiral staircase there is a big display of decorative plates with a check propped up on the shelf written to John Ramsey from Jay Elowsky for $7,000 memo: JonBenet Family - uncashed. There were another two receipts over in bar sink area one from Kevin Albert, and another check-looking receipt.
As for the damaged looking door edge someone mentioned earlier as looking damaged? to me that's fingerprinting dust.
Mainly what I was looking for near JB's room was anything that could have caused the head wound other than a flashlight - an edge of the tub, an edge of the dressers, something that would have resulted in the head wound in connection with a scuffle and a shove. There is an ante room off JB's bedroom looking to be a laundryroom, with ironing board left out and iron on top. The camera lingered there for a few seconds. The black velveteen tights may be seen on the floor near the doll house. Patsy said she removed the tights and put the longjohns on her that night after she was carried up to her bed.
Also JB's bed had 0 pillow on it at all. MS D, you suggested at another time that there were other pillows JB could have used but one usually uses a pillow at the head of your bed for sleeping, and it was missing - the one downstairs? So the likely scenario to me is that she got herself out of bed, took her pillow with her,went downstairs as someone was up then in the kitchen area, grabbed a piece of pineapple from the uneaten bowl with serving spoon left out from an earlier time, then was hustled back up to her bedroom where a scuffle ensued when she didn't want to go back to bed. Flashlight could have been used to walk a willful JB back up to bed so as not to turn on hall lights. Scuffle could have occurred there in the bedroom and I tend to agree with Doc now that given the amount of debris on the floor absolutely anything could have made those circular abrasions. We don't know how long the scuffle went on. Burke, with his partially opened bedroom door may have awakened to scuffle noises and voices and stayed in his bed, not knowing what it was about or it's relevance later.
ReplyDeleteNot true. There's a crime scene photo on acandyrose that shows JBR's unmade bed with a pillow in a Beauty and the Beast pillowcase near the foot.
DeleteCC
Lot of people take their own pillow when traveling. Maybe the pillow was left out in order to take it on the plane trip?
DeleteGS
Not in the video however
DeleteAnyone could have walked that pillow back up and put it back on her bed by the time crime scene photos were taken
DeleteI just watched video....pillow is there Inq.
DeleteSorry Anonymous, I can't make out the clutter at the foot of her bed in the video to be a pillow with beauty and the beast printing. I just see that there is no pillow at the head of her bed, and if that very same pillow was down in the kitchen clearly it was removed from her bed, ended up down there. That was my point - no pillow at head of the bed, pillow in kitchen, possibility she herself went downstairs with the pillow
DeleteI think there were possibly two pillows originally on her bed. The beauty and the beast one, and the plain white one seen in the kitchen area.
DeleteI tend to agree evej, one for sleeping and one for decor, with a pillow sham or that matches the bedspread. The spare bed pics I haven't looked at in a bit. But Patsy and the kids seemed to use beds for a catch all or like a horizontal closet.
Delete"There was no reason for Burke to lie about sneaking downstairs because he was never asked about it. No need to bring it up at all, and if he'd actually done something down there he didn't want anyone to know about, he'd never have mentioned it at all."
ReplyDeleteYour theory is that through being questioned by LE that day and for 20 years that BR had "no reason" to bring it up and was never asked about it. I am quite sure that he felt it completely irrelevant and that is why it took him 20 years to spit that out.
Now where in the autopsy report by ME does he say "erosion." Abrasion yes, erosion no. Page 4.
ReplyDeleteNot autopsy report, experts report in 97.
DeleteAnd you are right GS, quite lengthy discussion including charts regarding what is a normal hymeneal opening for a 6 year old
ReplyDeleteSo experts report was an interpretation. ME report was what he saw and reported on. I stand by "erosion" being an interpretation. ANd if you want to go with erosion, I'm guessing you (I don't mean you personally, you in general) want to also interpret "chronic." Abrasion goes with assault with some hard object, but if you want to go with erosion then cause could be chronic vaginal infections due to bedwetting and soiling and poor hygiene. Or medications used to treat.
ReplyDeleteI would really welcome someone coming forth and putting together a good Intruder scenario. I think we've exhausted the other three - that is just when I think we've exhausted them there is some other point to argue, which keeps this site going. So if anyone who is reading here, or is new, or is remaining silent out of fear of getting slammed, a minority can quickly become a majority if the argument is sound.
ReplyDeleteNo intruder scenario makes sense so this won't get much a following here.
DeleteThe most convincing intruder theory I've ever seen was proposed by someone on one of the Internet forums, whose name I've forgotten. I discussed this theory at some length in a blog post titled "New Improved Intruder Theory," which can be found here: https://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/12/new-improved-intruder-theory.html
DeleteUp to a point it seems to work, but when evaluated in light of ALL the evidence, then imo it breaks down.
Oh okay Doc. Thanks! I'll go back and read the New Improved Intruder Theory.
DeleteAs a relatively new visitor/poster to this site (been lurking since October of this year), I was truly exhausted and exasperated by the intruder theories. Doc's citation here is indeed the most compelling of the intruder bunch. The level of complexity and time "in-home" required to execute the plan seems highly implausible to me. I think Lou is probably a nice, relatively smart fellow who was snowed by the Ramsey's education-level and "pseudo-friendliness." My moving on to the "Ramsey Did It" theory (I think you guys call it "RDI"), got me here. I agree with Doc that if Patsy did it, there would have been no call to 911 from her on the morning of the 26th. I dabbled with Burke for a bit, but this whole Burke shabang is WAY too complex in its after-workings as well as its cover-up creativity (in my mind). Normal parents would call 911 asap. All I've got to support this is a psychology degree, some historical hands-on work with Access Graphics as they were one of our distributors (as well as similar corporations for me to know the competitive CEO-types pretty well) and a dash of common sense (applied to a not-so-common situation), but to me...it's all John.
DeleteWelcome, Candace. I'm pleased to see that you too "get it."
DeleteI suspect that Lou Smit's basic logic wasn't all that different from my own (though other aspects of his theory are very different). But since he lacked the imagination necessary to separate "the Ramseys" into two different individuals with different sets of motives, he assumed the decision to call 911 was made by both of them. And since it made no sense that two people staging a kidnapping and writing that particular ransom note would have called 911 with the body still in the house, he must have felt sure "the Ramseys" were innocent. He actually said as much in an interview. That bothered me for a long time as well, until I figured it out.
Doc, I believe that thinking was LE's biggest stumbling block in this case! They had a huge mental issue separating PatsyJohn and once/when that piss-poor handwriting Cina "not-so-expert" Wong eliminated John as the author of the note...all it left in their minds was poor Patsy.
DeleteUnfortunately it wasn't only Cina Wong, whose credentials are shaky at best, but six bona fide "experts" who ruled John out. How he managed that I can't imagine. But that's definitely when the case went into a tailspin.
Delete" Lou Smit's basic logic ..."
DeleteWho paid Lou Smit for all his investigation? He was on the Ramsey payroll, right?
Also, at the time, it was extremely popular to jump on the Evangelical bandwagon and join the "club".
This was also in the days just following the McMartin pre-school case and the Satanic ritual abuse hysteria, but before the scandals involving the cover-up of pedophile priests in the Catholic Church. How many times has Christianity been used to hide behind?
Twenty years ago now, and our culture has changed somewhat. I keep in mind the trends of that time, and what people were exposed to and thinking about, and what was accepted as fact, that turned out later not to be.
GS
Probably not Zach. At least not the way Lou Smit presented it, stun gun, climbing through window. What was interesting was Lou didn't use the Samsonite to boost himself back out through the window. Had he done that he would have fallen down and hurt himself.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing convincing about an intruder theory. An intruder would not have used two different methods to kill JonBenet. An intruder would not have killed JonBenet and left her body to be found inside the home when the body could have been moved to an outside location. Instead, the body was painstakingly wiped down and left where it could be found instead of simply being dumped, buried, submerged, burned, etc. The Ramsey lawyers knew this was a major discrepancy and that is why they attempted to created a faux intruder for John to allude to when he was interrogated in June 1998. According to John's story the killer must have still been hiding inside the Ramsey home after police arrived. This concoction was attributed to a chair blocking the train room door and an unlatched basement window - indeed a desperate attempt by Team Ramsey.
ReplyDeleteThe killer being a stranger to the family is even less likely. If the intruder wanted to be sure he would receive the ransom money without involving police why would he simply not wake John and Patsy and hold them at gun point? He could wear a mask and order them to collect the ransom money while being sure that nothing suspicious was being relayed on his watch. Why break into a house to receive money, leave your bargaining chip in the house, and risk having a call traced? Too many unnecessary steps taken. The only reason an intruder would take such steps (assuming everything else made sense about that scenario) is because he or she's presence would be recognized by the Ramseys.
The intruder theory is a dead end no matter what angle you choose to approach it.
Hercule
Yes, I see that, which is why I will never return it. I just thought that Lou Smit's version couldn't be the ONLY version worth talking about - there was all that business about the keys being given out, the disgruntled housekeeper, the overly solicitous Santa Claus (even Mary Lacy at thought it was Santa Bill), and lack of enough evidence resulting in an arrest of family members. But stacking up any intruder theory against reality has an intruder theory lose. I then returned to what I thought from the get go, PDI - with one quick foray into a BDI scenario. Just can't imagine such an extreme coverup. I think there are variations in here as to what precipitated it and how it all went down, the sequence, etc.
ReplyDeleteGS -scroll up some, I replied to you on the 'group' I was referring to.
ReplyDeleteAnd CC, had to laff a bit, what brand of OTC treatment is the size of a lima bean? Over the years when I've had to use something, I thought of them more like bullet shaped and sized. But bullets do come in all lengths and diameters too (when picking up brass asking my hub which one is his out of the zillion on the ground).
However, a vaginal or rectal insert can be cut down if it needs to be.
And hate to go there but - yeast infections can occur with oral sex and something a doctor may not consider at the time with a very young child.
GS, I seem not to be able to type well tonight, I meant upthread that you have to hit 'load more' Twice to see my reply to Ms D on the previous blog entry.
ReplyDeleteBut if you may be referring to being a victim of molestation, yes, that too.
'lil. thanks for that, and my apologies for the misinterpretation.
ReplyDeleteGS
Inq, you said "Mainly what I was looking for near JB's room was anything that could have caused the head wound other than a flashlight "
ReplyDeleteCheck out the faucet in the bathtub. I'm sure other's have surely noticed that.
GS
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDecided to edit by way of delete. Yes, I think a hard push into the faucet may have been a possibility GS.
ReplyDeleteIf she hit her head on the faucet that would definitely have produced very visible signs, most likely a bump and lots of blood. Same with a baseball bat or golf club. Which is why the investigators seem to have agreed on the Maglite, as it was made of hard rubber, unlikely to lacerate the scalp.
DeleteDoc, I was thinking more of slipping, sideways in to that faucet.
DeleteI just have to think (if I am right that PDI) there was a component of anger or purpose at that moment, or why else the big cover-up if there wasn't some culpability?
Still, the "intent" to kill, in my scenario, was not there.
GS
Still doesn't explain why the parents chose both sexual and monetary gain as the motive for the intruder, GS. A cover up for an accident, a. doesn't involve staging a crime, as Doc as said - you're basically guaranteeing an investigation you really don't want, and b. if a kidnapping is the route the Ramseys decided to take, then the ransom note would do it's job - a kidnapping for money is the motive outlined in said note. Therefore, there is not one, single, plausible reason why penetrating JB's vagina was necessary in any BDI or PDI scenario, and that is why, no matter how many times I ask for one, no one will touch it.
DeleteNeither the barrel of the baseball or softball bat fit the hole in JonBenet's skull. The lip of JonBenet's toilet seat, however, fit snugly into the skull's depression.
ReplyDeleteHercule
wouldn't that have cracked the toilet seat Hercule? It had to be a hard object
Delete" The lip of JonBenet's toilet seat, however, fit snugly into the skull's depression."
DeleteMaybe she really was sick to stomach?
My daughter told me that one time she was so sick that the lid of the toilet came down on head.
It just falling down would not cause a fracture, I don't think. Somebody would have had to slam it down on her head.
GS
A parent with absolutely no history of so much as even spanking her children does not decide, on a whim, to slam down a toilet seat on her daughter's head, with so much force that it cracks her skull from left to right, because she contracted food poisoning.
DeleteWhat about a driver? The shape of the end of this club would leave a rectangular shape I would think
ReplyDeleteIt’s the books. I always go back to the books.
ReplyDeleteIf both John and Patsy Ramsey worked together to cover-up the brutal death of their daughter, and for my point it matters not whether Patsy did it or Burke did it, the general consensus among PDI and BDI is that both parents decided to cover up this crime. Why? What are the important motivating factors that went into this decision? I’ve heard protection of family from prison, protection of their reputation, and protection of John’s fortune and business. How about the motivating factor behind keeping their daughter’s body in the basement? Most seem to attribute this to the parents not being able to bear having their child out in the cold, alone, it was too undignified of a way to leave her. So we can conclude from many commenters that even though Patsy or Burke killed Jonbenet in a rage, or jealous fit, one of them had morals and values enough that they could not turn a loved one into the police nor dump their daughter’s dead body in the woods.
So throughout the next few grueling years of constant persecution, scrutiny, thousands of dollars spent in defense of their innocence, the collapse of John’s fortune, the pending decision of a grand jury, they don’t turn on one another. They never waiver from their stance that they are both innocent of the crime. And after the DA clears them, they celebrate by authoring a book together, which will call upon them to relive the hellish experience and perpetuate the lies again and again and again and again. John sets up a fund in where the proceeds of the book will go into what was called the JonBenet Ramsey Children Foundation, which of course as we now know, was a half-assed attempt to make the book seem altruistic. Now, if they were both in it together, one killing, one covering up, then we cannot attribute one iota of morality or ethical behavior to this couple. If one killed and one covered up, then they both immorally maintained their innocence by accusing innocent men and women, and sat down together to concoct a fairy story about a murder that one of them committed, and that they knew would make them money. They would have to be a couple that was on the same level as Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, and Aileen Wuornos rolled into one.
I find it hard to believe that both of these parents could be that callous. One of them yes, but not both. One of them would have had enough during those years of a constant barrage of negativity, hate, destruction of their reputation and fortune. And even if the non-murdering parent kept their mouth shut out of fear of being prosecuted as a conspirator, would that same non-murdering parent sit down with the murdering parent to perpetuate more lies, more accusations, and make a profit off of the dead child?? One of them believe the other was innocent. That's why they kept up a united front. Which one? Patsy Ramsey died. John Ramsey still writes books. He still appears on news shows that discuss his innocence. Would the conspirator continue to do this or would the murderer? Suzs
I maintain the same rationale if Burke had committed the crime. Neither parent would be putting themselves out in the public eye, peddling lies and robbing the consumer by making money off the death of their child. They would fade into the background and thank God that they nobody in their family was convicted of this crime. Suzs
DeleteThen what is the overall need to keep defending? Because John is defending not only himself but the family unit, as a unit who did not commit the crime. JR - Champ, or Chump. Now part of the continued defending is due to the 20 year anniversary at this time now just passed. But yes, even before that he came out with a book, and he introduces his new wife, and she professes he's the nicest guy she's ever known. He could still feel persecuted, he lost everything, but it's an intriguing thought you put forward, did one continue to believe in the others innocence? Who's innocence died - JB's or Patsy's? I'm glad you put your discussion in the form of a question because this case is nothing but a big question mark. I'll continue to read your post and ponder.
DeleteWouldn't they have needed money after losing their family fortune? Writing books is a good way to make up for that and create a cover. OJ did the same thing.
Deletehello Gumshoe. Yes, that is surely a reason to try and generate some cash, but it keeps media attention on them/him. O.J. is an arrogant SOB who wanted to continue to flaunt that he got away with it. O.J. squirreled his money away so that no matter what kind of settlement the Goldman's won they'll not get one dime of it. Now of course they won the right to get the proceeds from O.J.'s book sales. Suzs poses some thoughtful questions -
DeleteThoughtful questions indeed. Another fact I struggle with are all the marks on JB's body. If Burke or the parents did something, it seems logical that it would have been one big event that went down such as an accidental, or even intentional, blow to the head. Why then all the other abrasions unless there was a major struggle? Sometimes i go back to IDI.
DeleteYes Gumshoe - I too keep going back to the ME report. A record of what he saw, without interpretation of what it means. All those abrasions, back of her leg, shoulder, what caused those? Was she dragged as some has asked, if so could carpet in the basement have caused a "rug burn" sufficient to leave an abrasion? The wine cellar room had a concrete floor but by then if the body was just relocated to that room I can't in my mind's eye see J, B, or P "dragging." There had to be some kind of struggle, something to do with that debris field and all of the little objects on the carpet of her room. And the triangular strawberry burn on her neck which to me looks like a running child grabbed by the neck of the sweater or cotton shirt and twisted.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteLots of debris on the basement floor according to crime scene photos, where suitcase is over by the window.
DeleteI think it would have taken very little dragging to leave abrasions. Maybe just rearranging in the wine cellar, onto the blanket? Any dragging at all would leave a mark I would think.
DeleteGS
I saw or read somewhere that JR said, that he thinks JBR died, because someone was trying to get revenge on him.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if he was being more honest than we know. Maybe he thought PR struck JBR on the head to get revenge on him, JR. In a subconscious way mostly. Like out of bubbling over resentment. Because we know it is not uncommon, that when the father sexually abuses the daughter, the mother can take it out on the daughter. The mother subconsciously blames the daughter, is jealous of the daughter. Sad but true. So there might be something to JR's statement.
Thank you SC for taking it down a notch and starting to contemplate.
Delete"Because we know it is not uncommon, that when the father sexually abuses the daughter, the mother can take it out on the daughter. The mother subconsciously blames the daughter, is jealous of the daughter".
DeleteYup, but I'm still not buying that John was sexually abusing JonBenet. And that is because of Patsy's strong personality, and her apparent doting on JonBenet. She certainly didn't do anything to make her "less attractive".
I'm sure Patsy would have missed the life-style that John was able to provide, should they ever have divorced....but its not like she would have been left standing in a breadline or anything. She could have took him for all he was worth in a divorce. Not to mention she had income earning potential all on her own, with her background and outgoing personality.
This was not a weak, dependent person the way the mothers from the 1950s tended to be - the ones who were afraid of the financial devastation and social stigma of divorce.
Patsy was a liberated woman of the 1970s. She wasn't afraid of the cops, and she wasn't afraid of John Ramsey, either.
These people certainly were not one dimensional cardboard cut-out personalities. I just can't see John being able to manipulate Patsy to the point that she would accept him abusing their little girl. She was too strong and independent.
GS
And one capable of much drama and flair GS, leaning on friends in the "waiting period", throwing herself on the body commanding Lazarus to raise her daughter from the dead, going on television and pleading with an audience to keep their babies safe, donning a dramatic black hat with veil, and clutching her throat graveside - backing up even further to a breathless call to 911 to get the cops over there as fast as possible there's been a kidnapping.
Deleteoops, not Lazarus, God who raised Lazarus from the dead.
DeleteKeep in mind, Inquisitive, that for every facet of Patsy's behaviour you demonize, it was only a few, short, weeks ago you saw her as a genuinely, grief stricken mother......
DeleteI find it very difficult to reconcile your current attitude towards Patsy with the attitude you had when you were IDI. How can one so radically change their opinion of someone so quickly? I don't believe one can.....so I'm going to have to go with a really obvious case of confirmation bias on your part.
Depending on who you believe is JB's killer, your opinion of Patsy (and sometimes John) changes way too dramatically for anyone to be ale to take your views of Patsy's behaviour/attire/flair for drama seriously.
Oky Suzs, if the murderer was John then he continues to profess the innocence of Patsy - books, interviews, putting on the front years and years after the crime. What would be his motivation for doing this? Surely he would know that by protesting so much it could spawn a new investigation. She can't be prosecuted for anything at this point. Is he flaunting as O.J. did? He knows the attention had been on Patsy from day one, he pretty much was given a pass. What would be the need to keep protesting? So working it from that angle of your post above Suzs, any thoughts? Then we can take on JR as conspirator (or co-conspirator).
ReplyDeleteMaybe he was hiding in plain site.
DeleteAnyone ever consider the theory that maybe one of the suspects like Michael Helgoth could have been hired by a close family friend or relative? Is it possible the stun gun and HiTech boots found near his dead body were planted by the person who killed him?
I think we've ruled all of that out. If we keep it to the family members inside there's plenty enough mystery as is.
DeleteIf we keep it to the family, it seems odd that both Burke and JBR got up after being put to bed to go downstairs. Unless PR and JR lied about putting them to bed but that's a very innocuous thing to lie about, unless they know it puts everyone up/awake at the time of the murder. If we are to believe that JR abused either child, it seems that many experts have conflicting opinions on this, no?
DeleteI don't find it odd that JB got up. She fell asleep in the car after a long day and was carried up to her room shortly after 9 p.m. It's logical to me to think that she would have woken up after (and this is speculation as to time) three hours of sleep. Pretty much the equivalent of a nap. She would have taken herself to the bathroom and/or gone directly downstairs because she heard someone up. Having just had several hours of sleep she may not have wanted to go back to bed. I do have the niggling doubts though about if she did use the bathroom was there still urine in her bladder enough to soak her panties and longjohns as there was, when her bladder gave out in the basement upon strangulation. So it's possible she did not get up and go to the bathroom, she may have just gotten up and gone directly down to the kitchen where she took the pineapple piece then. 45 minutes later the digestive tract stops digesting.
ReplyDelete"She fell asleep in the car after a long day and was carried up to her room shortly after 9 p.m. It's logical to me to think that she would have woken up after (and this is speculation as to time) three hours of sleep. Pretty much the equivalent of a nap"
DeleteI agree that the ride home was just a nap for JonBenet.
The kids may have gone upstairs and "got ready for bed", got into their pajamas, and came down for a little more looking at their new gifts and a snack before bedtime.
I wonder if the children weren't up considerably later than what the official story was. The later they were up, the smaller the time frame for an intruder to commit this crime.
The kids have to be asleep early, in order for Patsy to claim that she was asleep early.
GS
Same thing if she had wet the bed. How was it that her bladder produced more urine at time of death if she had already drained it earlier?
ReplyDeleteThis seems to be another conflicting point depending on who you ask. Did people assume she wet the bed because of the urine found in her clothes or did her bladder give out after death and that was the cause?
Delete"Same thing if she had wet the bed. How was it that her bladder produced more urine at time of death if she had already drained it earlier?"
DeleteThe pineapple? Its almost like watermelon, which we were always told not to eat before going to bed.
I don't know what it is about some foods that seem to be able to produce more fluid than what the initial intake was. Coffee comes to mind. How do you drink one cup and pee out a quart?
GS
Guess so - body keeps making urine
DeleteGS, she consumed a minuscule amount of pineapple.....such a small amount is not going to produce enough urine to soak her clothes!
DeleteThey found a pool of urine in the basement where they suspected she was strangled. Then her body was moved into the wine cellar room.
ReplyDeleteThere was a conflict about bed wetting right from the start. The sheets were not wet, but the smell of urine was detected. Of course we have lame television shows that show a wet bed. Steve Thomas postulated that Patsy flew into a rage over bed wetting, yet the sheets were not wet. Had she perhaps stripped the bed and done the laundry and put the sheets back on before detectives combed the scene? But since a puddle of urine was found in the basement that is where they thought her bladder gave out. I'm sure there was much more to it than that, but that is what I read.
Thanks. I doubt she did laundry if the bed sheets smelled of urine.
DeleteAny input into the notion that Fleet White looked in the wine cellar door and didn't see anything, only for JBR's body to later be discovered there? I still don't understand why JR couldn't have gotten the body out of the house; especially that late at night.
"Thanks. I doubt she did laundry if the bed sheets smelled of urine."
DeleteI think it was the mattress the smelled. I know I read that they had gone to plastic sheets, which would not have remedied previous soakings.
Those plastic sheets protect the mattress, but the urine has to go somewhere. So it rolls off the bed and onto the carpet.
GS
I'm the only one on here so I'll input. I would think a white blanket wrapped around a body in a dark room would have illuminated the area so she may have been resting further back initially. Then moved forward for the "finding."
ReplyDeleteMy wonderings are regarding the rest of the duct tape, the rest of the white cord, the rest of the paint stick - how were those items disposed of and where. Or was that all there was, used up in the crime.
rather paint brush handle, not stick
DeleteWhile Patsy seemed to be a strong person (by surviving Cancer for so long if nothing else). Her behavior after JBR died did not seem over the top imo.
ReplyDeleteSouthern (usually well to do) women wear hats a lot so I don't agree that that was drama.
As far as the graveside photo, it was just a thinking reflecting shot to me... nothing more.
I believe she trusted JR and had no clue of the molesting. So when he was ruled out she "allowed" the gas lighting as a means to just get through each day.
As far as the rest of her unusual behavior, I think we can just attribute that to the shock of losing a child in such a devasting way.
I realize that I am not adding any thing new...just commenting on above thread about some of her drama. It's not there as far as I can see.
"I realize that I am not adding any thing new...just commenting on above thread about some of her drama. It's not there as far as I can see."
DeleteWell. That's the sign of a good actress, isn't it?
She was keenly aware that she had become a "public figure" and being watched and photographed. She had a love of being photographed, it seems to me.
Her aspirations, remember, had been to become Miss America.
Her talent for the Miss West Virginia contest was a dramatic reading, based on the play The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, in which she played two roles.
She had already been on the cover of a Womens Christian Magazine.
And for me, this ties back to why, if it was an accident, just say it was an accident - "She slipped in the bath tub and cracked her head." But that would not make so good of a press release.
From my perspective, this is *so* about the personality of Patsy Ramsey.
Fortunately, her past performances are not a matter of speculation or rumor, or someone's theory. And they segue nicely into the performance she put on following the death of JonBenet.
That is not to say that I don't think she felt genuine grief. She just did not feel at fault.
GS
I also think in the staging phase she drew strength from her Psalms 118 passage
DeleteHowever......if I give you that her behavior was totally genuine and normal for the circumstances, is not her behavior, as described by the people who were there, show some type of mental breakdown?
DeleteWhich would be consistent with her being the "one who did it."
She was trying awfully hard to blend in with the crowd, there. And all of this before they had found JonBenet dead in the basement.
GS
Now that we have another "Gumshoe" poster, I'll attempt to avoid confusion by signing off with a slightly updated moniker. To reiterate, I am a 100% believer in JDI. I mostly agree with Doc's theory but not necessarily on each step John took in his plan. I also agree with CC that the murder was planned at least a week in advance.
ReplyDeleteIt is a fact that John Douglas's book "Mind Hunter" was in the Ramsey master bedroom on the night of the murder. Lou Smit saw a crime scene photo of the book. Officers Wickman and Arndt also saw the book, but after Pam Paugh's visit to the Ramsey home a couple of days after the murder, the book suddenly disappeared and the Ramseys denied any knowledge of the book. Imo this lie might be the most telling one of all the many lies they told.
The book was purchased for the sole purpose of preparing JR to commit the murder and get away with it. There were no other true crime books in the house so it's safe to say that JR did not purchase Mind Hunter because he was a True Crime fan.
I don't think John intended on killing JonBenet when he did. If that were the case he would have certainly produced a ransom note from an unknown source of paper and text. Not handwritten for sure. Imo something happened on Christmas Day, most likely during the Whites' party that panicked John into activating his incomplete plan.
Gumshoe, P.I.
Hi Gumshoe, P.I. I didn't think you were the other Gumshoe as I went back and read some of your postings quite some time back. I'm very sure CC will be very glad to have you back here. And you will be formidable, as you have no doubt done alot of research to try and prove the JDI theory. But I believe some of us over here on the PDI group don't see this as a thought out calculated premeditated murder. We see it as an emotional outburst of some sort, followed by a cover-all-bases throw all attention off self cover up. Later, John did all he could to provide cover for his wife - presenting to the world a solidified unit to fend off LE, the press, and anyone else that would destroy their teamness. But I have a question - what specifically in "Mind Hunter" would John have used - as in what passages, would he have taken a particular interest in to perpetrate this heinous act on his daughter and coverup? Thank you, Inq
ReplyDeleteOh and why would JR use the Mind Hunter book as primer, when he later hires John Douglas who says he doesn't think he had anything to do with it?
ReplyDeleteIn the book, "Mind Hunter" the chapter I referred to features a case and provides the following information:
ReplyDelete"The key to many murders of and by loved ones or family members is staging. Anyone that close to the victim has to do something to draw suspicion away from himself or herself. One of the earliest examples I worked on was the murder of Linda Haney Dover in Cartersville, Georgia, the day after Christmas in 1980. Though she and her husband, Larry, were separated, they remained on reasonably cordial terms. The five-foot-two, 120-pound, twenty-seven-year-old Linda regularly came over to the house they used to share to clean for him. In fact, that’s what she was doing that Friday, December 26. Larry, meanwhile, took their young son out for a day in the park."
"Sheets and pillows are pulled off the bed, dresser drawers are half-open, clothing is strewn around, and red stains that look like blood are on the carpet. Larry instantly calls the police, who rush over and search the house, inside and out. They find Linda’s body wrapped in the comforter from the bedroom, with only her head exposed, in the outside crawl space under the house."
"Based on the crime-scene photos and the information the Cartersville police sent me, I told them the UNSUB would be one of two types. Quite possibly, he would be a young and inexperienced, inadequate loner who lived nearby and essentially stumbled into this crime of opportunity. But the crime had too many staging elements, which made me lean toward the second type: someone who knew the victim well and therefore wanted to divert attention from himself. The only reason a killer would have felt the need to hide the body on the premises was what we classify as a 'personal cause homicide.' The trauma to the face and neck seemed highly personal, too."
"The staging had its own internal logic and rationale. Whoever had brutalized Linda did not want to leave her body out in the open where another family member—particularly her son—might find it. That’s why he took the time to wrap her in the blanket and move her to the crawl space."
"He wanted to make this look like a sex crime—HENCE the raising of the bra and exposure of the genital area—though there was no evidence of rape or sexual assault."
My thoughts: Obviously the date. December 26. Creepy indeed. The murder took place in Cartersville, Georgia - a small town just northwest of Atlanta in 1980. John and Patsy lived in Atlanta during that time and got married in November 1980. Very interesting.
The staging. The house didn't have a basement so the body was hidden in the crawl space and wrapped in a comforter. Douglas seems to inadvertently offer advice by pointing out the mistakes people make when they stage a crime. Both victims had blunt force trauma to the head and staged to look like a sexual assault.
I looked into this case further and found out when Larry Dover had the opportunity to commit the murder. He and his son had just left the residence to DELIVER CHRISTMAS PRESENTS TO NEIGHBORS (sound familiar?) and suddenly made a u-turn back to the house because Larry "forgot" the gifts. He told his son to wait in the car. According to the son, it was a long time before his dad returned to the car.
According to Douglas:
"The problem posed by staged crimes for any of us in the law enforcement field is that you can easily become emotionally involved with the victims and survivors. If someone is in obvious distress, we obviously want to believe him. If he’s a halfway decent actor, if the crime appears legitimate on the surface, there’s a tendency to look no further. Like doctors, we can empathize with the victims, but we’re doing no one any favors if we lose our objectivity."
Isn't that exactly what Douglas did when the Ramseys hired him? Interesting.
Gumshoe, P.I.
It is, Gumshoe.
ReplyDeleteBut...........so you are saying John read Mind Hunter, plucked a crime out of the book and sought to copycat it? It's a bit too obvious don't you think?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I was thinking, too, Inq. But my god, that is uncanny! Wonder what Douglas really thought then when he looked into the details of the Ramsey case?
DeleteBut then again, like Smit, he was now working for the other side. He was being paid to find an intruder.
I've never read Mind Hunter. I might have to.
GS
"Oh and why would JR use the Mind Hunter book as primer, when he later hires John Douglas who says he doesn't think he had anything to do with it?"
ReplyDeleteThat's a good question. To put this into perspective, John Douglas retired from the FBI in 1995. He became a consultant and hired gun for high profile cases. Keep in mind, that Lockheed Martin was most likely calling the shots. The reason that the Ramseys were able to get the best lawyers in the country was because of the LM influence over this case. Heck, LM owned the house the Ramseys lived in when JonBenet was murdered! LM had ties to Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman. A smart team of lawyers aren't going to hire someone like Douglas unless he agrees in advance to not only clear the Ramseys but to also create a profile of an alleged intruder. As an incentive, I'm sure Team Ramsey made it clear to John Douglas that it was in his best interest to not only insist JR had no idea who he was but also that his best-selling book could not be used as a "How To" murderer's guide. Douglas was paid handsomely for his efforts while former members of his own team (Robert Ressler, Ron Walker) vehemently disagreed with his assessment.
Gumshoe, P.I.
This makes me wonder about the Grand Jury subpoenaing the owner's of the book store.
DeleteWho did that book really belong to?
If the person who did the crime had the book in mind, what balls to hire the author of that book to defend them!
Also brings to mind that there were a lot of talk show programs that had discussed, prior to the case of JonBenet, the idea that when a body was wrapped in a blanket, it pointed to a maternal instinct. I know I had heard that way prior to JonBenet, and of course, you immediately think, "the mother."
But why in the heck if somebody knew that, would they go ahead and do it, as if taunting law enforcement to make a connection?
Unless it truly was a dissociation of personality, subconsciously using a script.
That's downright weird!
GS
If LM owned the Ramsey home at the time of the murder, then how was Patsy able to have the renovations done that John had spoken of? So you are saying they were leasing or renting the home?
Delete"But...........so you are saying John read Mind Hunter, plucked a crime out of the book and sought to copycat it? It's a bit too obvious don't you think?"
ReplyDeleteExactly. I'll credit CC for making a brilliant point concerning JR's quotes and actions. To paraphrase CC, John often pointed out the obvious. I think the obvious things that could be tied to him (much like LHP notepads, sharpies, and rope on a stick) also gave detectives the impression that it was too obvious. Examples include:
1. JR took credit for breaking the basement window.
2. JR declared to Linda Arndt moments after finding JonBenet's body that it had to be an "inside job."
3. Several people witnessed JR saying that the killer didn't mean to kill JonBenet because she was wrapped in a blanket (Mind Hunter describes this exact staging element).
4. JR handed over the notepad to the police so they could analyze handwriting samples.
5. JR claims he took a melatonin tablet to ensure a good night's rest (implying that he was sleeping too deeply to have heard any sort of commotion). Despite the obvious suspicion of that convenient claim, JR had no problem sharing that bit of information.
6. JR claimed he did not video tape his children opening gifts on Christmas Day as he normally did because the batteries were not charged. How convenient! What about using the AC adapter?
There's a few examples. I'm sure there are more but you see my point.
Gumshoe, P.I.
So you are saying John used some kind of reverse psychology to throw suspicion off himself by throwing suspicion onto himself? As if to say "see how helpful I'm being, I couldn't have done it" - wouldn't he surmise then suspicion would immediately been thrown on Patsy? Here's the notepad our ransom note was written on but I didn't write it - or, here's the notepad our ransom note was written on and you'll see for yourself that Patsy wrote it? Not very indicative of the protection he provided her later.
ReplyDeleteJohn Ramsey is not only Machiavelli, he is Svengali, incestuous, a fairly decent copycat killer, with a minor in psychology, and business administration.
ReplyDeleteI don't know Gumshoe, I could take any one of those 6 points and explain them without thinking Patsy's good for it, but I get your perspective. And with that - I'm going to try and get some things done today. Nice talking with you.
ReplyDeleteLikewise.
DeleteI don't think John was too concerned about the staging being connected to Patsy. He used her notepad, sharpie, and paintbrush in the crime so that speaks volumes. JR is a narcissist. The only reason he supported Patsy is because his lawyers wisely advised them both to maintain a united front and never waver from it.
Gumshoe, P.I.
You've been missed Gumshoe. I still credit you and attempt to quote you (poorly, I'm afraid) when explaining the RN to newbies. Welcome back.
DeleteCC
For the good of Lockheed Martin? :) I'm getting punchy.
ReplyDeleteSeriously Gumshoe, I've come to the conclusion that this case cannot be solved with logic. There is nothing logical about it (IMO)
ReplyDeleteI do recall reading about pry marks on a door (kitchen, I think?), and I believe that initially, John and Patsy had explained them away, but later on (like many details), John used the marks to point to a possible intruder.....I'm trying to find the information now, but so far, no luck. There's a lot to weed through! :D
I have never heard of JR claiming the pry marks on the door were from an intruder although that surely is possible.
The story, from either Kolar or Thomas' book was that PR claimed that the pry marks could have been from the intruder. The problem with this is that prior to the murder, Barbara Fernie pointed out to PR that she should get that same door fixed, as someone could break in through that door. When Barbara Fernie learned that PR had claimed this to a tabloid she basically dumped her as a friend as she thought PR was implicated in JBR's death in some way. This is more of the same usual lying and "creating of an intruder" by PR.