Puff puff puff, I'm running hard just to keep up with you guys.
By the way, I hope to God I'm not on the jury if this case ever goes to trial. Judging from the opinions being batted around here, and elsewhere, no one in that jury would ever be able to agree on anything and they'd all be at each other's throats after an hour or so. So much for our hopes that this case might sometime actually make it into court.
Who, are you kidding Doc? You'd love to be on the jury :-p
ReplyDeleteOnly if they bribed me with Cuban cigars and Russian vodka. (Actually Polish vodka is better and cheaper).
DeleteLol, and John could provide the Cubans.
DeleteSeriously tho, the GJ gets to see all the evidence that the prosecution has at the time that they decide to show, correct?
But the jurors in a trial may likely see much less than what the public is aware of. At least that has seemed to be what happened in trials I watched/followed (OJ, Scott Peterson, Casey Anthony, Michael Peterson, Robert Blake)
You're right, Lil. We throw everything we've got at a GJ in an effort to get an indictment. When it comes to trial we get picky. The objective becomes crafting a narrative with a storyline the jury can follow, building fact upon fact to what (one hopes) is an inescapable conclusion.
DeleteCC
Thanks CC. I know the judge and the defense also have things that are not admitted, or the jury is told to disregard (hard to unring a bell). I know after a verdict, there is always the "if only they got to hear this" then the outcome may have been different.
DeleteI sometimes wonder what defendants and jurors think of those times when one or more is acting like a hotdog or showboating.
I was a seated juror one time, and the defendant had two attorneys. One I did not care at all for her line of questioning to the ME. But I knew not to have my opinion of her sway my reasoning of the evidence, the defendant or a guilt or not guilty decision. Nor having the victims's family in the courtroom influence my decision. But outbursts do jangle the nerves.
CC or Dog could attest to this better, but I think any defense attorney worth anything would bring back a Not Guilty verdict for any of the Ramsey’s. I have felt for some time that a confession is the only thing that could bring justice to this case…..which always comes back to Burke. We know John isn’t confessing to anything, Patsy isn’t alive, which leaves Burke. OBVIOUSLY, I believe Burke did it, but under the incredible rare circumstance that I am wrong and John did do this, I believe Burke saw or heard something. So, the hope would be that when John leaves the Earth, Burke finally comes clean about what he knows. Then again “Dexter” Burke could just leave bowls of pineapple everywhere he goes to taunt all of us.
ReplyDelete-J
I agree, J. What evidence there is does not point incontrovertibly to one particular person, and I think any halfway decent defense attorney could find plenty of reasonable doubt.
DeleteCC
J, without me giving my opinion on this case, I asked my dentist yesterday (who is also an MD and the flight surgeon for the Air National Guard unit in our our city) and his assistant if either one had an opinion on the murder.
DeleteBoth said they hadn't seen all the new programs, but were aware of the case back in the news.
They both said they thought the brother "did it".
There are two modes of reasonable doubt in this case, which makes it a bit special. First, reasonable doubt regarding the possibility of an intruder. I happen to think it's possible to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that there was no intruder. Which leaves only one of the three Ramseys in the house with the victim that night.
DeleteThe second is reasonable doubt regarding which of them killed JBR: John, Patsy or Burke. But that is NOT the sort of reasonable doubt any defense attorney would want to argue, as it pits the family members against one another and makes all of them look really bad, regardless of who actually did the killing.
Now, realistically, we know that Patsy can't be prosecuted, because she is deceased, and Burke can't be prosecuted, because he was too young. So, like it or not, if it's ever brought to trial, the defendant will be John Ramsey. And since he will NOT be in a position to argue that his wife or son did it, as that would totally destroy his credibility, and it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that an intruder didn't do it, I don't think it would be all that hard to get a conviction.
You tell em' Doc!
DeleteMike G
I feel like it would be hard to get a conviction too. And both sides would have compelling experts to cancel each other out...
DeleteI think Dog was the other lawyer, but if I'm wrong, my apologies
ReplyDelete-J
Like to bring up something else here. Just watched a youtube video on the Ramsey house, not the house constructed by CBS, but the actual house after the crime. Although the images are blurry and the camera hand is shaky (you really can't tell what he's zeroing in on on the floor), Kolar was insistent in suggesting the activity around the crime centered around the kitchen. Of course we know it moved on down to the basement, but does anyone recall from his book why he thought for instance the head blow may have occurred in the kitchen? The camera goes on upstairs to JB's room, and there is a Christmas tree in her room. Her closet door where her TV is housed is open, and there is a debris field on the rug rivaling the debris field of the Titanic on the ocean floor. It looks as though things were thrown around from that closet. Her trophies are also toppled over. Elsewhere in the house where the really big trophies are kept they are in a sort of china closet, lined up, organized, but the few in her room are toppled over. As the camera goes into her bathroom although fuzzy, it looks to be a red balled up top on the counter, not in the sink. There is bric a brac in the bathroom as well, one half opened drawer where I believe it said Patsy kept her changes of underwear organized by day. Nothing noteworthy around the tub edge. As the camera makes it's way back down to the kitchen we do of course see the pineapple bowl and the glass with a tea bag as well as other clutter. But I am just wondering why Kolar thought the action centered around the kitchen. The disaster area to me looks to me to be JB's room. I can send the link to the youtube video but I'm sure most of you have already seen it, nothing new, but just something I noticed about it I hadn't paid attention to before.
ReplyDeleteYou make a good point. Judging from the clutter and disarray in JBR's room it looks as though a significant part of the assault must have taken place there. Some investigators said they saw no sign of struggle, but I think that was based only on the autopsy. However, that room, and the adjoining bathroom, do seem to have witnessed some sort of struggle, possibly a sexual assault. Which makes it kind of difficult to accept the CBS version, based on Kolar's view, that it all started in the kitchen. Of course it's possible that JBR ran to her room from the kitchen after snatching that pineapple and Burke caught up with her there. But if that's the case and they had a big fight, you'd see signs of that on her body, including more than one head blow, I'd imagine. When kids fight they really go at it, so one would expect to see more evidence of that in the autopsy.
DeleteWas there any family or friends who were able to describe what JBRs bedroom usually looked like? Heck, I know with my kids they have clothes strewn on the floor, toys always knocked over and it always looks like a struggle took place in there! We clean it up and 48hrs later its in the same state again.
DeleteFor me the kitchen holds the key because of one bit of evidence...yes sorry folks, the damn pineapple. It doesn't make sense for a struggle to occur in her room and then she goes downstairs and has pineapple. And she didnt have the pineapple before she went to bed...because the Ramseys knew nothing about it and I honestly think she went to bed as soon as she got home from the Whites. Plus JBRs pillow was in the kitchen and was never returned to her bed...so obviously she never went back after eating the pineapple.
So yes I believe Kolar is correct and the proceedings of that night started in the kitchen. And based on that, Burke is the most likely suspect (due to a number of things) but I won't make this a post about Burke.
Inq- can you please post the link? Thanks
DeleteRadar online has two police videos.
DeleteIntially one might get the impression that this is a "house proud" family. And then we get to see a bit more of interior shots.
Zed, let's hope LE did ask that of the party attendees that were there for the gingerbread assembly, etc.
DeleteIt would be reasonable for the parents (typically the mom) to ask her children to straighten their rooms up before guests arrive, especially if any of their playmates will be coming over.
Since the kids rooms weren't on the main floor, imo no adult visitor should have any reason to be in either of the children's room. If needed for a place for guests coats, but again, their rooms were not on the main floor.
That mess could have happened by Jonbenet herself, alone in a hissy fit, and only discovered much later that evening.
Still looking for the youtube video. When I find it again I'll send the link asap. Zed, she obviously got up after being put to bed when they arrive home. Doubtful Burke was up around midnight, mom wouldn't have allowed for that. I'm just wondering what Kolar based his assumptions on that the kitchen was the "locus" if you will of events that transpired that led to her death. And no, please. Not as CBS lays it out. I would just like to find that video so that you can use your intuition as to where and if you think a struggle took place.
DeleteNot sure, Inq., but I think its his story of the pineapple setting Burke off, like he impulsively clobbered her as she reached into the bowl.
DeleteGS
Yes GS, this is true. I'm wanting to not believe that myself but I know some do.
DeleteStill looking for the youtube video. When I find it again I'll send the link asap. Zed, she obviously got up after being put to bed when they arrive home. Doubtful Burke was up around midnight, mom wouldn't have allowed for that.
DeleteDid BR not just admit to being up late at night ? Maybe I am delusional but I thought he just recently said that he was up late and out of bed , probably right around midnight ?
Yes, Keiser, but he "snuck" downstairs to play with a toy without his mother's knowledge.....
DeleteThe problem I have with the bedroom, or anywhere upstairs, as the starting point of the sexual assault, is the scream heard by the neighbors. Had that scream occurred anywhere but in the basement, Patsy and Burke would no doubt have heard it and responded.
DeleteSecondly, the scream had to have occurred before the blow to the head and just seconds before it. That it occurred at all means something was different this time, and the only thing I can think of is the basement as the scene of the crime. It makes sense that John carried JonBenet downstairs to the basement while she was asleep, where unexpectedly she woke up and was instantly horrified by her cold, dark, spooky, and unfamiliar surroundings. To make matters worse, she most likely saw her father naked, half-dressed, or worse yet, seen and felt him fondling her by the light of a nearby and well-positioned flashlight. John's fatal error may well turn out to be his decision to "touch" his beloved daughter one last time before killing her. Had he not done so, she would not have awakened and have cause to scream. Could something else have awakened her? Possibly, but then why the change of panties? Necrophilia? There are degrees of everything, even sordidness. To me, necrophilia and John Ramsey don't equate, but even if they do, it doesn't ruin the theory.
Forty-five minutes later, after changing JonBenet's panties, fashioning the garrott, breaking the window, planting the suitcase, placing the body in the wine cellar, and staging a strangulation that turned out to be the official cause of death, John planted the ransom note on the stairs (when it was written is immaterial). He then went to bed.
Mike G.
I thought the woman who said she heard a scream later recanted, said it was a "psychic scream" or some other very hippie-dippy Boulder thing? I believe that's what Steve Thomas wrote, and he couldn't get her to go on record or repeat the story.
DeleteCC
LE asked a lot of questions to Patsy about the last time Jonbenet was bathed. She was barefoot when she was brought up from the basement.
DeleteIt was noted at the time that the bottom of her feet had dirt, dust, what have you consistent with the basement, irrc.
The theories of her being awake,taking her pillow downstairs and eating pineapple is more logical than sound asleep and carried all the way down the basement.
She still had to have had the fruit at some point after the Whites party.
Thanks for the recent posts. Fresh perspectives, discussion of actual evidence and absence of personal issues, attacks and rude comments. I'm a lurker and seldom post, but do appreciate the thought and discourse when the blog is "on target". Thanks to Doc too, for the difficult job of managing it.
ReplyDeleteDaffodilGal
Doc – can we get Dole or Chaquita Banana to sponsor this site?
ReplyDeleteSo, I’ve been on this blog for 5+ years. A lot gets talked about and I’m sure this has as well, but I really can’t come up with a good answer myself, so to all JDI’s, here goes:
IF John intentionally murdered JB that night, how would he have felt comfortable enough to do so knowing that Burke and more importantly Patsy would have just fallen asleep an hour or so earlier? Even if he didn’t finish the staging that most of you claim he wanted to, it still had to take an hour and a half at minimum. So, how does John intentionally that night do all that you believe he did with his freedom and life at stake IF either Burke or Patsy wakes up? Actually, they didn’t even need to come downstairs…if Patsy gets up to check on JB in her bedroom and sees her not in there, she immediately goes downstairs to look for her and his plan is foiled.
I think this part of the narrative gets largely overlooked and it really shouldn’t. I have gotten up just to go to the bathroom at 3am and if my child wasn’t in their bed, I would immediately run downstairs to look for them. Any parent would do the same thing. This post wasn’t meant to be long, but I am very curious to see all of your answers on this.
-J
I believe JR premeditated the murder as much as eight days in advance, traced the RN while at Jeffco airport Christmas day, and did not actually molest her that night but rather tried to obscure prior abuse with the paintbrush. The whole thing therefore took no more than an hour to an hour and a half and took place much nearer dawn than midnight in my scenario.
DeleteI've toyed with the idea that he ground up some of PR'S sleeping pills from her cancer treatment days and sprinkled 'em in her wine at the Whites', but he may have just risked all at 4 AM, when people sleep most deeply.
Good point, J-man. I'm curious to see what my fellow travelers think.
CC
CC, refresh my memory on your 8 days prior. Is this in connection to Patsy's calls to the pediatrician? If so, then how did John became aware those calls were made?
DeleteIt is. I think Patsy finally freaked over the recurring vaginitis, made 3 calls to Beuf between 5-6 PM on the 17th, was told the next logical step would be a full-on pelvic exam. Patsy shared this with John, who knew the jig would then be up, and began to lay his plans.
DeleteNice to have you here more, Lil; hope it means your circumstances have improved.
CC
Ah, okay. And she may have made the calls in front of him.
DeleteAnd thanks too, not quite yet improved, but I'm working on it, since we know we can't change other people. Dammit! :)
I think what it boils down to could be this:
DeleteIf John premeditated this crime, whether 8 days or even 1 day in advance, he would certainly have had the opportunity to drug Patsy and Burke, to be sure they'd be sleeping soundly.
And if it was not planned in advance, but based on a spontaneous spur-of-the-moment decision, then the possibility of someone getting up in the middle of the night would not have factored into his thinking. Which means he just got lucky.
If Burke or Patsy did happen to get up in the middle of the night, then he may well have murdered them as well, claiming an intruder did it. And by the way, I do suspect that Burke heard or saw something he hasn't been willing to discuss, for fear of implicating his Dad.
Well it is on record during an interview when he was a child, about he could be in his room and either hear if someone opened the fridge door, or something about hearing sounds from the kitchen area.
DeleteRule out drugging the mom or son. Mom was bright eyed and bushytailed before 6 am with hair and makeup done. None of the family reported feeling woozy or groggy that we have been able to read.
DeleteDoc - I think if anything, he simply got lucky. I can accept that, because the drugging theory is preposterous to me.
DeleteCC - Above you said that you think the RN could have been written in advance. The problem is then why would you use a pad of paper from inside the house and not remove it? Why use a pen from inside the house and not remove it? If the note was written ahead of time or the crime was premeditated with the intention of having a RN, then why not use ANY other piece of paper that John Ramsey would have had access to? He could have gotten paper and a pen from literally ANYWHERE. The last thing you would do is use paper and pen from inside the house and then even worse, leave the paper and pen....inside the house. For me, this absolutely eliminates any theory of the note being written ahead of time.
Regarding John just being flat out lucky that neither Patsy or Burke waking up.....it's fair. Yes, that definitely could be the case. It does beg the question that if it was premeditated, does he really leave it up to total chance and luck?
I think when we go with the theory that this was premeditated, it really doesn't explain so much of what happened that night. When leaving for the party, why not say to Patsy "hey, did you unlock the door to ____ room?" Or when they got home from the party, John could have said something looked odd...."Hey Patsy, did you notice that van parked at the end of the street?" None of this happened. For me, everything that happened, whether it was Burke or not, happened that night because the head blow was an accident of some kind.
-J
"I can accept that, because the drugging theory is preposterous to me."
DeleteNo more preposterous than the writing of a 2 1/2 page "ransom note," I'd say. Or the murder of a 6 year old in her own home.
"The problem is then why would you use a pad of paper from inside the house and not remove it?"
That was a problem for me as well, for a long time. But the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. If John's plan (as I've conceived it) was carried out, that pad could easily have been destroyed by the time the police were called. It's also possible a match between the note and the pad would not have occurred to him -- if you look closely at this type of pad you'll see that the perforations are really hard to see. Superficially it can look like a straight cut. Finally, we can't rule out the possibility that he was planning on destroying the note before calling the police -- claiming the "kidnappers" wanted it returned, and relying on friends to witness it's contents.
I think it possible the paper from the pad was used simply because it was handy to just pop the pad into his briefcase before heading for the airport. Why he would want to return the pad to the house after writing the note is certainly not clear, but I don't see that as a serious problem. Maybe he was afraid Patsy would notice that it was missing and get suspicious. Maybe he just got careless.
It's also possible JonBenet's murder was not pre-planned but spontaneous, in which case the use of paper from that notepad would be much easier to explain. But that note is so long and so carefully thought through, it just strikes me as more likely to have been at least planned, if not written out, in advance.
I certainly do not see a panicked Patsy sitting down to craft that note, just after killing her daughter "accidentally" -- or as part of a plan to cover for her son. A very cool head was required for the writing of that note, which should be obvious.
Lil:
DeleteI agree. A drugged out Patsy and Burke would have felt it the next morning, and like you said, Patsy woke up early. Burke spoke of lying in his bed pretending to be asleep. John had no medical background. Even if he did, it's not easy to titrate long acting sedatives to comply with your wishes. They are not "on" "off" inhalation anesthetics used in out-patient surgery.
A full account of the scream heard by the neighbor can be found in the following link:
http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurder.blogspot.com/2010/11/stanton-one-of-ramseys-neighbors-living.html
The scream lasted three to five seconds (it was a little girl screaming," recalls Stanton, 52. It was the longest, most horrible scream I have ever heard in my entire life. It sent shivers down my spine. I could tell the sound was coming from the Ramsey house and I knew instantly it had to be their little girl, JonBenét".
Later the article suggests patsy heard it by going on to say:
"The Ramsey's have always claimed they heard no such (scream). How could this possibly be?"
The police conducted experiments and concluded it was possible by virtue of a vent in the basement acting as an amplifier pointing towards the neighbors house.
Mike G
Doc - regarding the paper. Yes, you have an explanation for it. I just don't see any possible benefit on any level to write the note ahead of time, but using anything that ties back to the house like the paper and pen. Honestly, I can't go down that road with you. He could have used paper from ANYWHERE....a pen from ANYWHERE......using the paper and pen from inside the house tells me it was written that night and on the spur of the moment, because that's what was handy at that hour of the night. He wouldn't have run to Walgreens to get paper at 2am.
DeleteI am not saying the JDI theory is eliminated simply because of this, but what I am saying is that I don't believe the note was pre-planned or pre-written.
-J
I think if JDI he did get soooo lucky with no b one waking up. Also, whoever hit her with the flashlight was lucky she was hit hard enough to be incapacitated but not so much the there was blood eceryeherr. That's one compelling reason for it to have been an accident.
DeleteAs far as premeditation goes, the fact that the paper and pen used for the ransom note were items that belonged in the house bothers me also. I try and put myself in John's position - from the perspective of a killer who has planned this eight days in advance - and I know I would buy writing materials that were brand new, from a store very out of the way, and I would be sure to discard them immediately after writing the note. That the materials belonged to Patsy isn't a deal breaker for me in regards to John possibly premeditating the murder, but it is a definite sore point. Unless, of course, as CC has theorized, John's intention all along was to cast suspicion on Patsy.....but I just can't see John doing that either. It seems obvious that he wanted the intruder theory to be believed.
DeleteI think the intruder theory was his first choice as well, Ms D, and Patsy only secondary - followed by Fleet and Priscilla White and a cast of thousands. Anybody but me, that's our favorite narcissist's bottom line.
DeleteCC
This is my exact thoughts too j,I am very open minded but it does not add up for me. It has always bothered me as to why jbr was hit on the head and not hit again if the plan was to finish her off, this is what leads me to believe an accident or unintentional hit occured. Also, I can even ignore red herrings such as both parents nodding the opposite way to their answers during interviews, and even patsy wearing the same clothes, with friends saying she would not do that. But for me, I'd be telling 911 to send fbi, or plain clothes police officers with the RN warnings, and the last thing would be to call a bunch of friends over, I know people react differently but really? JDI is tricky for me, if it turns out to be true, the only way I can see it working is if the RN was pre-written, even then he still has hope and pray no-one wakes . Nothing though explains why the long wait after the head blow, and if Jdi, he's hanging around like he has all the time in the world.
ReplyDeleteWas it necessarily a long wait, Eve? The shortest estimate I've seen is 45 minutes between the fractured skull and the strangulation, not an inordinate amount of time for him to stage the abuse with the paintbrush, fashion the garrote, change her panties and lay out the RN.
DeleteI personally think the blow to the head was intended to be merciful to both his victim and JR - she would experience less pain and he would not have to strangle his conscious (and aware) struggling child.
CC
Anythings possible cc, but If Jr didn't want her to suffer, then getting it over with should have happened immediately after, rather than the staging, wiping down etc first. Unless he thought she was already dead.
DeleteI agree with you, CC that JR premeditated the murder in advance, probably as you said, 8 days in advance. He planned to kill her and dump the body in a remote area, He wrote the RN and decided he would kill her and made it look like a sexual assault followed by strangulation to mask the prior chronic abuse. The night of the crime after making sure Patsy and Burke were fast asleep, he assaulted her. During the attack she probably started bleeding from the already traumatized vagina and most likely she started screaming. That is when the blow to the head was needed in order to silence her. This also explains why a neighbor heard a child screaming on that night. He probably finished the staging and strangled her according to his plan.
DeleteNow, the following morning, after Patsy called the police and foilied his plan, and realizing the body would eventually be found and seen by police as well as Patsy, he cleaned the body (to avoid Patsy the image of her precious child covered in blood) and changed her in the clothes she was found. This explains why he went awol for an hour.
Its, of course, my opinion...but its interesting to see how many different scenarios can be pictured in this case.
It is indeed. Fun, too, to hone and refine one's own thinking based on a comment from someone else.
DeleteWelcome, Marcela.
CC
I believe John intended for the massive head blow to end JB's life. As he was waiting for her to die - which he probably assumed would take mere minutes - he wrote the ransom note, or possibly began his staging, depending on whether you believe the RN was written in advance or not, which is the simple reason why a considerable amount of time elapsed between the head blow and strangulation - and was probably surprised she was still breathing by the time he was ready to bundle her up in the blanket and put her in the trunk.....or the suitcase. That is when he strangled her, simply as a means to an end, possibly with the xmas scarf LE seemed so interested in (or maybe he used the green xmas garland that was found in her hair, though I'm not sure it would have been strong enough). I believe the cord tied to the paintbrush handle was added later during the additional staging once John realized LE were going to discover the body in the house - no doubt he thought a garrote would be consistent with a murder by a "foreign faction".
DeleteWe actually have no way of knowing whether the "garotte" was actually intended as a murder weapon OR the staging of the crime by a violent intruder. Either possibility is consistent with a JDI scenario. It would be helpful if we knew more about the time of death, but we don't.
DeleteNot sure if anyone here would know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyway. Whenever I have banged my head on something, I always feel it to see if there is any blood and check for a bump. Would not the large whole in JB's skull be palpable through the skin (i.e. if Patsy or John felt her head)?
ReplyDeleteAs I said before, the skull depicted in crime scene photos has a large oval shaped hole but it was a dent, the bone was not driven into the brain. The dent cracked the skull but there was not a hole. It was "depressed" injury.
ReplyDeleteInq, do you think the depression would've been evident at the time if a person felt around on her head?
DeleteAnd could it be determined if a head blow could cause her to vomit or froth at the mouth? (thinking of the different stories of the white top/red top.)
(I mentioned the frothing as our dog when having seizures would soak the car seat and my jeans and our clothes, it went all over him and us)
Again I agree Lil, the blow to the head was extremely severe. I suspect whatever John saw afterwards convinced him she was, for all intents and purposes dead. But Doc is right, there's no way to know for sure the motive for the strangulation. I tend to lean more towards staging than finishing the job simply because strangling further suggests a kidnapper/pedophile so vile no one could possibly suspect John. The more the focus on a pedophile knowing things about the Ramsey's, the more suspicions are drawn to people in JB's beauty pageant circle, or maybe even to John Jr. if Jr. Senior was planning to bury JB with the contents in the suitcase.
DeleteAlso, my guess is statistics show that pedophiles who are also necrophiliacs are much more likely to be serial offenders than fathers who stop abusing their daughters once they grow up.
Mike G.
So are you implying they (the ME) cut the skull away to make that hole? A "dent" (indentation) and a "hole" are entirely different things. I'll have to re-read the AR. I understand that the skull piece may have not been entirely detached, but I don't think the ME cut it completely away to make that large hole? Maybe I'm wrong.
ReplyDeleteI inferred she meant "crater" not hole.
DeleteMike G.
Here's something for our attorneys - CC and Dog, if they choose to, and when they have the time.
ReplyDeleteStart with: you are on the prosecution side - what evidence would you like the jury to see? What evidence or red herrings do yoy hope the jury doesn't hear/see?
Do you want handwriting experts?
Do you want home and cell records?
Do you want touch DNA?
Do you want Karr mentioned at all?
Do you want Lacy's CARPET BUTT PRINT she saw?
Smit's investigation?
and anything else anyone may include or exclude and see what our in-house attorneys decide what to pick from.
Okay Kath found it. Right, it's a radar online source so here's address:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP_CybgVxxw
titled "JonBenet Ramsey never before scene footage"
Thanks, Inq. Always important to revisit the "scene".
DeleteGS
You'll notice - not in this video but in other photo stills, how much neater Burke's room was than JB's. But I think there's a difference between "kiddie litter" and signs of a struggle.
ReplyDeleteThank you much Inq : -))
ReplyDeleteME says the following: "in the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one and three-quarters by one-half inch." So a fragment of skull was loose. Anyway I'm going to stop saying "oval-shaped" since the ME says rectangular shaped.
ReplyDeleteInq - to answer your question around the kitchen.
ReplyDeleteThe evidence tells us JBR went downstairs that night (pineapple in her stomach and pillow on counter).
The evidence tells us that she did not return to bed (pillow remained downstairs).
The evidence tells us that the pineapple in the bowl was hardly eaten (which tells us something may have interrupted the person eating it).
So the kitchen is one of the focal areas of this crime...I agree with Kolar. I'n not going to say Burke hit her over the head because she stole pineapple (although its very possible). Anything from this point onwards is guessing. But given JBRs bladder let itself go near the basement, I would suggest the knock to the head potentially happened there.
Given Burke snuck downstairs (confirmed), ate pineapple (not confirmed but no one will convince me otherwise), most likely used a torch given he was sneaking downstairs it all points to Burke.
I believe Burke and JB went to the basement (or maybe Burke chased her), he had the flashlight and lashed out at her near the door (no intent to kill). He then saw her motionless body and panicked...he didnt know why she wouldn't wake up. So he prodded her with his nearby train tracks (only credible theory I have seen for those marks). He obviously doesn't want to tell his parents so he may wait 30min+ and then finally realise she isnt waking up. He wakes his parents and for all intensive purposes it appears JBR is dead. John walks Burke back to his room with the torch (confirmed) and tells him to go to sleep and that JBR will be ok.
They then come up with the intruder theory and that theory requires some sexual molestation (they never would have risked putting her body in the car). Is this extreme? Most definitely. But it was extreme circumstances and people make weird and sad decisions.
I also believe they told Burke that JBR was ok and went back to bed...he actually believed an intruder came. Obviously as he got older he probably realised the truth.
Anyway that is my take...all based on the starting point of the KITCHEN. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But no other theory comes close to making any sense...including JDI. Anyway hope that answers your question.
And even though I am BDI, I am more BII (Burke instigated it) and JPDI (John Patsy Did it).
DeleteI think your theory makes reasonable sense Zed. I could add some things but most have been added before. What was found out in 2013 is that the GJ saw and heard enough evidence and supposition to file true bills against the parents, and I'm sure were told of the law that a minor cannot be charged with a crime.
Delete"John walks Burke back to his room with the torch (confirmed) and tells him to go to sleep and that JBR will be ok."
DeleteWhy the need for the torch? Why not simply turn the light on - everyone's up by this point.
Why was the flashlight wiped clean if it was used for something so innocuous?
More importantly, why did John lie about it for twenty years?
"They then come up with the intruder theory and that theory requires some sexual molestation"
Wrong. They came up with the KIDNAPPING FOR RANSOM story. HUGE difference, and this scenario certainly didn't require ANY sexual abuse. And if it was John and Patsy's intention to make it look like there was a sexual motive all along, then the ransom note actually becomes a damning piece of evidence against them.
That they would stage both a phony kidnapping for ransom AND a homicidal pedophile intruder makes no sense, especially when no parent really wants to be messing around with their recently deceased daughter's vagina.....they spent a considerable amount of time composing three, long, pages making sure no one doubted that kidnapping was the motive. No sexual penetration was required.
Yes, certainly Ms D the statement "John walks Burke back to his room with the torch and tells him to go to sleep and that JBK will be ok" wherever that came from is J and B doctoring their stories to allow for handling of the flashlight, being in the kitchen area, JB being in bed, Patsy being not sure where, because they think it's relevant to the investigators. Logically lights would have been turned on . No need for a flashlight in your own home when JB is asleep and wouldn't have awakened to a light being turned on and Patsy was still awake.
DeleteExcellent analysis Ms. D. No reason to stage BOTH a sexual assault AND a kidnapping. Imo the sexual assault was real, and the kidnapping was staged.
Delete
Delete"Laser sharp comment at 5:28 a.m. Ms. D. Would anyone who isn't a JDI like to take it on?"
Thanks, Inquisitive, and I see Zed still hasn't responded! Nor J or Keiser for that matter.....
Or me either ha! I have a response but would rather wait.
DeleteThere are two radar vids, one has the body covered up with the throw from upstairs. I'm trying to bring the other links here, but having issues with my connection timing out. I have all the links on my forum as well as the reelz footage but they all should be able to be found from the radar online site and youtube.
ReplyDeleteDec 20 radar online second video of crime scene footage they obtained
DeleteWarning as decedent is shown
http://radaronline.com/videos/jonbenet-ramsey-murder-scene-video-camera-footage/
Look at cynic's post here from Dec 8 I think, about the reelz docu show.
DeleteI don't know if the links still work, but did for me a few weeks ago (I am not a member of ffj but glad they have an open forum)
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?10391-JonBenet-video-links-%96-Fall-2016/page2
Cobwebs on broken glass on the interior @7:22.
DeleteThanks diamondlil. I had not seen the second video. The first one quits on me half way through, but the second seems more pertinent.
GS
Cokorado law states that all grand jury testimony has to become public information. How do they get away with this ?!
ReplyDeleteIt was sealed, which is done.
Deletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_juries_in_the_United_States
But it was that turd Hunter with his spin doctoring during his press conference that made it appear that the grand jury did not find reasonable cause.
It took til 2013 for the public to know what a whopper of a mistruth he presented.
Agreed Lil, he is a turd but not as much as Mary Lacy, who should by all rights be prosecuted. I know that it is, however, Colorado law , in the context that I understand it, are not supposed to be able to seal GJ testimony. Maybe CC or Dog can elaborate.
DeleteIn my state, and most states, grand jury proceedings are secret until a true bill is handed down or an investigative report is issued. In rare cases proceedings may be sealed for some specific reason - usually if knowledge of them would jeopardize other investigations or prosecutions. If there's some other statute peculiar to Colorado I'm afraid I'm not familiar with it, KS.
DeleteCC
Thank you C.C. You surely know better than someone on a podcast.
DeleteNot if he or she was a Colorado lawyer, but thanks for the vote of confidence, KS.
DeleteCC
Hey Zed. I appreciate the laying it out there as you have done. I was going to go down point by point in the story and explain why I don't think it happened that way but that wouldn't be useful. So I'll ask you why you think your story above. Was there something you saw or read that led you to those decisions that her murder was done by Burke? If you hadn't of seen the CBS Special would you have come up with this theory on your own, or did you read Kolar's book and agreed it had to have happened that way. And without seeing the CBS special or reading Kolar's book how does it make sense to you that it happened that way? Is it more because you think it was an accident and you don't believe the other two would have accidentally killed their child but you can believe Burke could and why.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that bowl of pineapple with milk in it was poured that night for Burke while John was helping him put his toy together or when he snuck back downstairs and got it himself (even though Patsy's print was on it). And neither parent said they poured pineapple that night for either kid.
How late do you think he was up before she came down with her pillow and why would he still be up that late and then travel down to the basement and hit her for what reason.
So that's what just comes to mind so that I might know what your thinking is.
When on vacation JBR and BR had to be "seperated" by the parents more than once. Seperated meaning in a sexual manner. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2013/02/05/tricias-true-crime-radiojonbenet-ramsey-special
ReplyDeleteOh wow. Can you tell who is giving this info? I likely won't be listen to this until later tomorrow.
DeleteAnd I have posted here before that yes indeedy pre-pubescent children of both genders can and do engage in sexual play and curiosity and exploration. I know Doc's belief is that Burke was too young to be interested in girls, only Nintendo and such.
The statistics of young boys around BR's age vs adult males engaging in sexual activity with younger siblings were posted by someone a few blog topics back and it was around 60/40 more young boys BR's age were doing so. So when JDI's ask what is most likely it is NOT the adult male as they proclaim. Nor does a kid, because he plays nintendo have a single thing to do with hia sexuality, as some would lead you to believe.
DeleteOK, first of all I checked that podcast and near the very end, a caller named KoldKase (a long time forum participant) claims that he "heard" something that disturbed him so much he can't repeat it. All he actually says is that someone told him that they heard that at one time the Ramseys decided to separate JonBenet and Burke. That's it. And of course he has clearly read some sort of sexual implication into it, judging from his manner. This is hearsay piled on top of hearsay. It could mean anything or nothing.
DeleteDoc, that wasnt Koldkase, that was Charlie Brennan if I am not mistaken. Koldkase was the southern female on the podcast. I was listening to it at work but I thought they said more than once while on vacation. He surely was talking about a sexual nature and if it is Charles Brennan he surely has inside knowledge of the case.
DeleteHe did not read anything into it, he was told directly and stated that he would not be blunt and come out and say it so he was looking for the right words to "imply it".
DeleteLol, proof right here that you have 3 listen, and I claim to be the correct one in saying it was Bob C towards to very end that said 10 years ago someone told him... so CC, I can understand how witnesses to the same event can be unreliable. But keep me on rhe witness stand, lol! I speak the truth!
DeleteSave me from eyewitnesses. And ear witnesses like you three. It's all hearsay, guys, all anecdotal, not provable.
DeleteI'd rather try a circumstantial case any day.
CC
True dat, it's hearsay. I however was stating the correct person's name on the blogtalkradio. What is the prize given? Some cinnamon Topsy's popcorn would hit the spot. :)
DeleteHey Inq - I'll attempt to answer your questions below.
ReplyDeleteQ. Was there something you saw or read that led you to those decisions that her murder was done by Burke? If you hadn't of seen the CBS Special would you have come up with this theory on your own, or did you read Kolar's book and agreed it had to have happened that way.
A. I was already reading a lot on Burke before CBS doco and it was starting to add up. And then CBS doco had some things which basically nailed in what I was already thinking. I havent read Kolar's book.
Q. Is it more because you think it was an accident and you don't believe the other two would have accidentally killed their child but you can believe Burke could and why?
A. Anyone can accidentally kill anyone. It happens all the time on our roads. Accidental deaths have occurred in sports, home domestics etc. I just don't see evidence this murder being premeditated and Burke was, I believe, with JBR around the time she was murdered so is the leading suspect. He is also the only one in the house to have hit her before (with the golf club) which a witness stated that the golf incident was on purpose. So he was lucky he didnt kill her that day. A child also performs actions without thinking of the consequences. My son threw a billiard ball at my head when he was younger. Does that mean he meant to kill me....of course not.
Q. Do you think that bowl of pineapple with milk in it was poured that night for Burke while John was helping him put his toy together or when he snuck back downstairs and got it himself (even though Patsy's print was on it). And neither parent said they poured pineapple that night for either kid.
A. Neither parent admitted about the pineapple because they honestly had no idea about how it got there and didnt see the importance (they didnt know at the time it was found in their daughters system). It was one of Burkes favourite food and made the way he liked it (with milk). I agree with CBS the oversized spoon indicates a child made it. Patsy would never use a spoon like that. Plus the pineapple was hardly eaten. If a parent made some food for a child they would make sure the child ate more than that. Patsys fingerprints dont come with a timestamp. Neither do Burkes but as I just explained I think it is extremely unlikely that anyone other than Burke made that dish.
Q. How late do you think he was up before she came down with her pillow and why would he still be up that late and then travel down to the basement and hit her for what reason.
A. I don't know how long he was up for, but I dont think it was a coincidence it happened on xmas. The kids couldn't sleep...they were still excited and were thinking about their toys/presents. Burke couldn't help himself and snuck downstairs which he admitted. JBR joined him (maybe he woke her up) and either she ran away from him and he followed to the basement...in which case the stolen pineapple theory is very plausible. Or, who knows. Maybe they had a race to the basement and he hit her so he could win. Or maybe he hit her to quiten her because she was being too loud and would wake their parents. Could be a thousand things which lead to a child hitting another. But I do believe it happened near the basement because of her bladder and because thats where his train set was.
Cheers
Zed, also remember that there were wrapped presents in the basement that had been torn into, like someone was trying to see what was in each wrapped package without removing all the paper.
DeleteThe boy's birthday was coming up soon in January.
Patsy told LE that SHE had done the tearing into, as she'd forgotten what all was there...hmm. But curious children could also want to peek.
Good point diamond. Another lie from Patsy no doubt.
DeleteMaybe JBR peeked at one of his presents and that made Burke angry. They were his presents! As I said, there is a hundred reason why he may have lashed out with the flashlight.
DeleteThe pineapple could have been eaten as early as 4:30PM--before the Ramseys left their home for a dinner at the White's" (Schiller 1999a: 558)
DeleteIsn't it possible JonBenet brought the pillow from her room into the kitchen on xmas morning? John and Patsy said the kids had gotten up very early, so she may have still been sleepy. There seems to be a few pillows in JB's bedroom, so one wouldn't be missed for that short amount of time, especially as the family were out most of the day.
Ms D - Take yourself completely away from your theory of what happened. Forget for a second that you feel JDI and you are not Johns defense attorney. Try to objectively look at the pineapple bowl and ask yourself what is most logical? Because sure, that bowl of pineapple could have been left out for the dog....but does that make as much sense as Burke taking that bowl out that night?
Delete-J
Thanks Zed for organizing my questions better than I did, it made for an easier read of your answers. You aren't alone in your ideas. It almost seems the tide is shifting in the last few years to Burke. I remember back in September or October we were discussing whether it possible even that Burke would have played a game with JB involving cord and tying a knot around a stick (he did have the cub scout/boy scout training as well as boat sailing experience)and the game went way too far. I can remember really thinking this. Since the ME couldn't really say which came first, head blow or strangulation he said that she would have died of the head blow possibly even with medical attention, and that the strangulation was what stopped her heart. He's off the hook being in the middle of what came first.
DeleteThere are other scenarios as well contributing to the family affair. If J were molesting JB she might have told her brother. He was always there. It may have taken more effort to tell another family member outside the home, such as her grandmother, older brother, older sister. The somewhat obsessed with her daughter Patsy could have suspected something going on and the frequent visits to the pediatrician may have been fishing expeditions, without out and out asking Beuf to check for molestation, which he would have been duty bound to report, she could have just wanted to rule it out by getting explanations for vaginal irritation that were other than sexual abuse. Then Patsy may have had anger issues with the victim, displaced, when the anger should have been directed at her husband = and another angle here could have been the directing of the note specifically to John.
It was as Hercule said, something along the lines of a toxic environment of family secrets, lies and pretending all was perfect in the life of the new billionaire, his pretty former pageant wife, their adorable trophy-winning daughter and quiet "normal" son interested in airplanes and gameboys. Quite a different story under the roof.
What's most logical to me is that the bowl of pineapple had been laid out by one of the many people invited to the house on the morning after the crime. We've heard all sorts of stories about people making snacks, cleaning up, etc. Could have been one of the Ramsey friends, could have been one of the "victim advocates" could have been a policeman or woman. The large spoon could have been intended as a ladle, so the contents could be transferred to another bowl for anyone who got hungry and wanted a snack. The latest theory is that she ate fruit cocktail, not pineapple, and while Paula Woodward is hardly the most reliable informant, she does claim she got this info from an official source.
DeleteI'd like to get rid of the pineapple argument all together. She got up, she ate fruit, it was undigested at time of death and that's all we can say about it.
DeleteBurke was whisked away that morning irrc before the advocates came. So why on earth would strangers know that pineapple and milk/cream/half and half would be a nice morning snack for adults and would no idea that the snack was a favorite of children they had never met?
DeleteFurther more if it was one of the guests, wouldn't they still scrounge around a silverware drawer for a better size spoon? Unless trained folks were also in a panic and just grabbed any old thing.
This is getting more magical by the day.
IF the pineapple bowl was put there by somebody at the house the next morning, where are their fingerprints?
Delete-J
Weak argument. Fingerprints don't always adhere. John handled the ransom note yet his prints weren't on it.
DeleteAnd if one of the friends did put it out, I think by now they would have owned up to it
DeleteGee wiz, that is just so unlucky for Burke and Patsy. Mrs. White took out a bowl of pineapple, poured milk in it...couldn't find a smaller spoon, so put a large spoon in the bowl and amazingly her fingerprints weren't on it anymore.
DeleteWhen will OJ be blamed for this murder?
-J
My guess is when he is released from prison.
DeleteLOL!!
Delete-J
tsk J, just means Patsy/Burke touched the bowl anytime not necessarily at the time near the crime
DeleteYou can look this up, but there is an enzyme in fresh pineapple that makes it irritating for the inside of the mouth for some people, especially if you eat too much. I would imagine it could also possibly irritate clear on through the urethra. And just a personal observation of mine, it does make you "pee".
DeleteSo I have wondered if JonBenet did "get in trouble" for getting into the pineapple, if they were trying to restrict her fluid intake.
GS
J - someone on topix a while back said that BR could make money by writing "If I Did It" ala OJ.
Delete"Further more if it was one of the guests, wouldn't they still scrounge around a silverware drawer for a better size spoon? Unless trained folks were also in a panic and just grabbed any old thing."
DeleteDoc already explained why the large spoon may have been put in the bowl - as a serving spoon for all to use to transfer the fruit onto their plate, it was never intended to be used as an eating utensil, which means the large spoon would have been put in the bowl intentionally, Inquisitive. It was a serving spoon, after all, so being placed in a bowl of fruit that everyone is going to share on the morning the victim's advocates brought breakfast over makes complete sense of why that particular spoon was chosen. BUT, the milk in the bowl is another story, of course, especially if we are to believe Burke enjoyed his pineapple in milk - I am merely responding to your comment regarding the size of the spoon. A serving spoon was put in the bowl of fruit because it was for the intention of "serving", not eating!
From the crime scene photos, that appears to be a food item that wasn't covered up with some Saran wrap nor any of the ransom letter guests seemed that interested in eating it.
DeletePatsy said she'd never use that size of spoon in a bowl that size. But likely the guests didn't have time to bring any party toothpicks with them.
Still wonder how that pineapple from that morning with the packed house magically got into the dead child's digestive system. If the Ramseys don't recognize the bowl when asked.
*Note -John gave statements that Jonbenet was not able to open the big fridge door herself.
DeleteMs D 11:41 p.m. 1/18 I think maybe you were mixed up = someone else was talking about the big spoon in the bowl, not I. But that's okay - I believe both Patsy and John said the bowl looked like a small serving bowl, something you might put salsa in, etc., and that if pineapple was served it may have been set out there Christmas morning. The milk however is perplexing. Who would want that other than one of the kids. I read in another interview that one of the parents said pineapple in milk was JB's favorite snack, not Burke's. Patsy said Burke preferred chocolate or berries. Whether that was on candyrose or another website I'm not for sure. In any event, bye bye pineapple bowl as relevant I hope?
DeleteYes, my apologies, Inquisitive, it was diamondlil who said that. Your comment was above hers and I hadn't realized yours had ended and hers had began.
DeleteAt this stage I don't think there was ANYTHING in that house that Patsy wasn't guilty of doing, of not doing, or of participating in directly or clandestinely!
ReplyDelete-Sisu
You are being facetious, of course. If you believe most people following the case, Patsy was guilty of everything, including being a mother.
DeleteThe overwhelming vilification of Patsy - on every forum I visit - is incredible. Even the most innocuous of her statements/actions are attributed to her alleged psychosis.
DeleteThe thing I find the most disturbing is that there seems to be only one person in that household who grieved her daughter's murder - and she is the very one everyone delights in hating.
My personal observation on similar situations is that when one member of a tight group has an apparent meltdown, every one else gets stronger and remains calm to de-escalate the over-the-top emotional display.
DeleteWhat if that morning of December 26 found John, Burke, and Patsy all curled up on couches in fetal positions, moaning and groaning, and surrounded by their friends? And this before JonBenet had even been found.
I find Patsy posing for the cameras at JonBenet's grave, in her black veil and very red lipstick, and that other one with her hands around her own throat disturbing. Drama queen over and over.
The vilification started with the inappropriate display of her little girl, and ended with that ransom note that just too many people believe bears too strong a resemblance to Patsy's writing.
But she's good, and I don't blame anyone who has been taken in with her Southern Belle charm. Had John fooled for awhile, too.
GS
Why is wearing a black veil and red lipstick to a funeral "disturbing"?
DeleteI swear, GS, almost all of your reasons for believing Patsy is guilty are based on a look of hers, a statement or a feeling.
Of course a giant black hat with veil may be appropriate funeral attire for a southern woman of means, but it seemed more suited on Jackie Kennedy during the funeral cortege and less so on PR. I too view her continued dramatizations of nearly everything after that event to be rather orchestrated for maximum effect - like calling in to Larry King and comparing JB to Princess Diana.
Deletewho was killed by the way by the over zealous paparazzi (and not by a drunk driver)- Patsy making the comparison to her own situation that the press were out to kill her and John.
DeleteRe: Keiser post 11:49 -- I listened to the pod cast and there is a VERY brief mention of someone saying that Burke and JB had to be separated on vacation (at around 1:37 ish on the tape) -- insinuating incest. There was however very interesting discussion regarding DNA and I would highly recommend at least listening to the tape starting at about the 1:00 mark.
ReplyDeleteI listened to all of it. They were laughing at the DNA, as I have been for a long time. There is NO mystery DNA from an intruder. If there had been an intruder who sexually assaulted JBR, there would have been tons of DNA, just like every other sexual assault case that has ever occured. I found the tidbit about BR and JBR to be most insightful, conformation of what I have thought for a long time. I think some of what we hear, like that tidbit, just goes to show that the investigators and those close to the case have information that we do not have. I am going to put forth a theory that BR was in therapy before JBR's murder for molesting JBR. Thus why the Ramsey's fought tooth and nail to not let his medical records be released to BPD.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteRephrasing - yes Keiser, if we could get a release on Burke's therapy sessions (2 years was a long continuation of therapy) then that might be the most interesting information of all.
Delete"I found the tidbit about BR and JBR to be most insightful, conformation of what I have thought for a long time."
DeleteIt isn't even reliable information, Kesier, so you should rephrase your statement to: "I found the tidbit about BR and JBR to add to my conformation bias of what I have already thought for a long time."
Let's just be honest. Everything that fits your BDI theory is taken as gospel. Anything that goes against it (which is probably about 85% of the known evidence, let's face it) is conveniently never mentioned. If a JDI brought in hearsay as evidence: "An unnamed source told me that Patsy had to separate John and JB due to John's inappropriate touching", you'd be the FIRST to tell us it was an utter load of crap. Be consistent - does hearsay count as evidence, or not? If it does, I have it on good authority that John was sexually abusing his daughter, and it's as compelling as your evidence that Burke was......so now what?
What a nightmare it must have been processing that house. I believe I read it took 3 1/2 hours. I would think it could have been even longer. You had contaminants upon cross contaminants, left out food, multiple people mucking up the scene, Ramsey clutter everywhere, the ME didn't leave until late to remove the body for autopsy, any DNA found on her would have been degraded left to the element of air and all because the mastermind threw everyone off by writing and leaving a note. So much for wanting justice for their little girl and boy as well. What he knows he's locked inside him.
ReplyDeleteMaybe all of the Ramsey men had issues with pageant queens.
ReplyDeleteJR - married one.
JAR - was obsessed with one according to his friends - so much so, that when they found out she was murdered, they all thought he did it.
BR - hated one to the point where he hit her with a golf club.
I think all three Ramsey men had abused JBR in one form or another.
They had motive and opportunity.
JR lawyered up JAR and his mother so that nothing could be asked of them. What didn't he want them to say? Why did JAR need a lawyer with such an ironclad alibi?
EG
JR had two reasons for lawyering up so quickly. First and foremost, was to keep Patsy's mouth shut long enough to make sure her story about what happened before the 911 call included their mutual agreement to call the police. Beyond that, John wanted to draw suspicion to as many individual suspects or "co-conspirators" as possible. Do you not think that, as time went on, and "team Ramsey" became more of an atom impossible to split, John would do everything to keep it that way, knowing that a statute of limitations provided light at the end of a tunnel? I'd trade living under an umbrella of public suspicion for being "ruled out" by the people with the power to incarcerate you any day of the week.
DeleteMike G.
I don't know about that, Mike. I should think first and foremost he wanted a criminal defense attorney because he'd just killed his daughter.
DeleteCC
Actually, EG, John married one, I believe abused a tiny one, allegedly had an affair with a third he had dress up in gowns, and then married another who designs pageant costumes. Coincidence or some kind of unhealthy obsession? I incline toward the latter.
DeleteCC
I have to wonder what a panel of people would think that had never seen, read or heard zilch about this case. But they learn that the dad had served in the military and that a pillow was in the kitchen. For all this about the 'flashlight was more humane, and the device was to hasten her death'.
ReplyDeleteMy gosh, he should know that a a grip could make her unconscious or the pillow could smother her if all of this was "pre-planned". Didn't one of Sean Connery's character's say "see this thumb?" ( meaning he could really hurt the person or kill the person with his thumb).
Lots of people, civilians and LE have tunnel vision when they refuse to see how some of the evidence looks very juvenile or childish compared to 'only total and complete adult involvement' that so many want to think.
There was a panel of people - the Grand Jury.
DeleteWell yes, thankfully, and we finally did know something. But since so much time has passed, like mentioned above - the statue of limitations has run out on most everything that could be charged. I would think that the GJ was aware of some things about the case at the time before being seated.
DeleteThank you EG, I have said more than once that jonbenet could have very well had more than one abuser, molestor as she was around other adult males as well as other young boys. She would've had more frequent interaction with those that lived in town and whom the family socialized together. Toss in the various male babysitters that the family used. (Of course women and girls can offend as well). I have stated a number of times there is no way of knowing the number count of who may have violated her or how many times over the years. The witness is dead, and the offender/s aren't confessing.
ReplyDeleteTo try and dismiss the "drugging Burke and Patsy" theory.....If he drugged them, then why not get the body out of the house that night?
ReplyDelete-J
Nosy neighbors.
DeleteCC
John leaving the night his daughter was supposedly kidnapped would be extremely suspicious. Especially if neighbors saw him leave the residence.
DeleteAgreed...but so would John running around for 2 days with Patsy and Burke away while John disposed of a body and went around his house staging a crime scene. Neighbors might ask questions when only John is home.
Delete-J
He could always say he still had last minute things to take care of at the hangar, and use that to tell anyone, family or others that due to the trip planned - he needed to be away before leaving the next morning.
Delete"Agreed...but so would John running around for 2 days with Patsy and Burke away while John disposed of a body and went around his house staging a crime scene. Neighbors might ask questions when only John is home."
DeleteNo it wouldn't. That was the purpose of the ransom note! It bought John an alibi should he be seen: he was picking up ransom/delivering ransom. It was "exhausting", as the note promised it would be, and took quite some time (there's no reason it would have taken "2 days" - four or five hours maybe.)
You should know that by now, it's only been answered several hundred times by this point. ;)
Laser sharp comment at 5:28 a.m. Ms. D. Would anyone who isn't a JDI like to take it on?
ReplyDeleteThe biggest issue with BDI is that his parents let him go to stay with his friends. If I knew my child killed his sibling, there's no way I let him out of my sight.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Yet BDI theorists have no problem glossing over the fact that Burke could spill the beans at any second. Especially if he's as psychologically disturbed as they say.
DeleteWhen have we said he is psychologically disturbed. If he was molesting JBR he may be but his precious records that the Ramseys fought tooth and nail not to be released have never been seen...so that is just speculation. We have called him socially awkward but thats about it. It was an accident.
DeleteAnd the Ramseys had a decision...let him go away with friends or stick around where law enforcement were present. Not a hard decision after all the other decisions they had made that night. And I have already posted that maybe at the time Burke believed there was an intruder and JBR went back to bed after his parents "fixed her". And remember he didn't go back to school for quite some time...until they were content he wouldn't speak (which he didn't do for 20 years until he was forced to after CBS hit the nail on the head).
Saying that, spreading feces everywhere is not normal. Not sure if you call thay psychologically disturbed, weird, or something else.
DeleteHow can we deduce that it's Burke's feces? It could be Jonbenet's, especially since feces were found in a candy box in her room. DNA testing wasn't performed on the fecal matter so it just adds more speculation to this already circumstantial case regardless of theory.
DeleteLet’s stop acting like Burke Ramsey was just a normal 9 year old kid. Fleet White said that when he drove Burke away from the Ramsey house, all he cared about was his Nintendo. Within weeks of his sister being found brutally murdered IN HIS HOUSE, Burke didn’t seem phased whatsoever by what had happened to her. He drew a picture without her in it…didn’t seem bothered by her not being there. I am not a psychologist, but in the very little we have seen and heard from Burke, he is absolutely not a normal kid. Even in his Dr. Phil interview we are told he is just a normal, everyday guy………ummmmmmmmm yes he is absolutely normal…IF HE’S THE JOKER!!!
Delete-J
If anything, we should focus on the fact that JR RUSHED to get him out of the house (i.e. before the body was found).
DeleteI thought I read somewhere that Burke went back to school pretty soon after the funeral (like a week or so).
Zachary - what, no reply to my first post? The feces post was just an afterthought.
DeleteSince I know that victims of any age, but typically children are not one to blab to everyone that they have been molested, abused or even bullied sometimes and many go to their graves never telling anyone about the family member, neighbor, teacher, priest - then I can certainly see a child that is the victimizer or caused the incident to not blab about it either. If any of you are old enough, the old comic strip - about the "Not Me ghost" that was blamed for every broken lamp and cookies missing off the plate - the kids did not want to own up to it.
DeleteI can see Burke not telling anyone, neighbor, officer or friend what might have happened. Not all kids are the 'run go tell that' type.
Zach, why should we think it is not BR's feces ? My logic works like this, if JR had a history of being a pedophile than we would, by all means assume the obvious, would we not ? BR has a history of smearing feces, so why would we assume anything else when LE says it is his and nothing has been proven otherwise ?
Delete"When have we said he is psychologically disturbed?"
DeleteWell gee, what is the only logical inference to be made here - the nine year old kid killed his six year old sister?! And as far as "we" goes, Zed, you are one of only a couple of BDIs who believe it was an accident. I'm pretty sure J believes he garroted JB as well - can you accidentally garrote someone?
"He drew a picture without her in it…didn’t seem bothered by her not being there."
A psychologist on one of the documentaries I watched said it was completely normal for a child to draw things exactly the way they are in the present - the family now consisted of only John, Patsy and Burke. He said: "I don’t really know what was going through my head, but she was gone, so I didn’t draw her". Which makes complete sense and if he did include JB in the drawing months after her death, you'd be claiming how "abnormal" it was, and that clearly, the boy was in denial! As you said - your most truthful statement to date - "I am not a psychologist". Neither am I. That is why I trust those who are and don't draw my own conclusions regarding what *is* or *isn't* "abnormal/normal" behaviour. That is BDIs biggest mistake, and as a result all reason and logic is tainted by this belief that he's a "weird kid".
"In the very little we have seen and heard from Burke, he is absolutely not a normal kid."
If socially awkward is abnormal, then sure....though those that knew him say he was a pretty average kid, if maybe a little quiet. Besides your own beliefs, PROVE he was abnormal. Prove that he, besides that one time when his mother was ill, had chronic scatological issues. Prove that he deliberately clubbed JB over the head. Prove that he only cared about his Nintendo (because shy socially awkward children never hide their real emotions, do they?) Show me that aside from being a little awkward, he was clinically disturbed enough to murder his sister but - amazingly - managed to convince every psychologist/LE investigator that he was A-ok! That's some genius, nine year old psychopath.....yet you scoff at the notion some believe John, in his fifties at the time, was some kind of "criminal mastermind".
"Even in his Dr. Phil interview we are told he is just a normal, everyday guy."
Wow. Imagine if this was said because......wait for it.....it's the truth?!
Has it ever occurred to you, even once, that this whole "regular guy" thing isn't actually a ruse, it's simply true?
"I can see Burke not telling anyone, neighbor, officer or friend what might have happened. Not all kids are the 'run go tell that' type."
DeleteWhether he could keep it quiet from his friends or not is one thing, managing to fool the experts who interviewed him is another. As we know, police investigators, and to a lesser extent, child psychologists, have ways of extracting the truth by asking questions that may not seem, on the surface, to pertain to the crime. He would have had to have cracked at some point - no matter how guarded he was - there is not a single doubt in my mind.
Ms D, do we know if any of the investigators or the child psychologists that spoke to Burke as a child had previous experience with a young child murdered in the home where a surviving young sibling was viewed as a suspect?
DeleteImo, from the info released, I don't believe at that time when he was being questioned any one of the experts were "going down that path" of he being considered a suspect. Nor even his young peers.
Now, perhaps they might have suspected he might be a victim himself of sexual abuse or inappropriate touching by an adult and questions worded for that. But I don't think the full questioning has been leaked or released.
And it probably shouldn't be, without either his permission or thru some other legal release.
J you are so funny. I agree, Burke knew something, heard something, for which he's keeping a secret as he told the social worker - he has secrets and if he tells they won't be a secret any more. I can even imagine the two of them up together, a violent altercation, and possibly a rope trick and sexual attack. But he was allowed to go back to school, and he was questioned by the authorities and the Grand Jury and if he was harboring anywhere near that kind of horror in his brain no amount of coaching by his parents or anyone else to keep him from at least alluding to it in some way, would be IMO, possible.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you 100%, J. BR was not a normal kid. He wasn't bothered at all by the fact that his sister was dead. He said himself he was more interested in playing video games. And the family picture he drew was telling.
DeleteSome neighbours down the street from me experienced an intruder breaking in while they slept. No one was hurt, but quite a few valuables were taken. Their 10-year-old son was so upset the day after the robbery that he cried most of the day. He was so afraid of the person coming back that he slept with a hammer under his bed for a week before his parents discovered it and got him some help. I know some people on this forum don't put much stock in psychology and/or behaviour but no one can argue that BR's reaction to his sibling's murder were in any way "normal."
And Inquisitive, I believe he did allude to the murder. During his interview with the child psychologist, he said he knew how JBR had been killed and reenacted "someone" hitting her over the head. He also got very nervous and agitated when shown the picture of the pineapple.
Very convenient that you mentioned the part where Burke got it "right", Canuck, but failed to mention the part where Burke also reenacted his sister being stabbed, which never happened......therefore, one could logically surmise that he genuinely did not actually know how his sister was killed.
DeleteWhat is a "normal" kid anyway? There is too much focus on his reaction to his sister's death. Kids are not equipped to handle things the way adults do and even adults all react to things differently. I believe he knows something that can implicate his father but I'm not buying him as the killer. People have spent 20 years making this way too complicated. The most likely one to be the killer is John and I think he did it. Burke is strange but John says he doesn't even think about JB and that's okay?
ReplyDeleteProblems with premeditated murder in this case.
ReplyDelete1) The very first thing that comes to my mind from watching 20 years of ID channel is this, I can not remember a single case where the murderer does not have a plan right from the start that centers around getting rid of the body ASAP. (Outside of a few serial killers with sick fetishes). The very last thing that someone would want, would be leaving it decomposing in the basement, in hopes and chance that the home is not searched, that you can get rid of everyone in the house to dispose of the body much later, and that your wife does not call 911, a plan by the not brightest of criminals would have and always make this priority #1. If someone premeditated these would be, the very first things planned and not just left up to "chance", yet that is not the case here.
2) If it was preplanned than the pad and pen in the house would never have been used, if JR went through all of the trouble to go to the airport and secretly write this RN, then surely he was smart enough to include the pad and paper into his plan and not take them both back home and put them back where they were. The note was, most likely, written in the house right where the pen and pad lay.
3) The staging would have been much better planned and completed. JR might not be a mastermind criminal but he is intelligent, much too intelligent to have not planned better as a preplanned murder by anyone would dictate. Judging by JR's behavior and watching him throw every person possible under the bus, I personally have no doubt whatsoever that if this were premeditated by JR, he would surely have done a complete frame up job on someone.
4) Back to number one, if need be the plan would have been made around and according to dumping the body asap, the risk much greater of leaving the body in the basement than leaving the house and dumping it that night. Especially if he had drugged the family. Of course, had he drugged PR then you would assume he would do the same with BR, which he obviously did not since BR was up sneaking around the house late at night.
5) Method of murder, the last thing that JR or anyone committing a murder would want in this scenario, would have been blood or a mess anywhere in the house. Premeditated would have been choking, suffocating or a similar no mess, quiet murder, not a giant wallop to the head with a heavy object. When preplanning a murder, these would be the very first things thought of by the person planning them, yet nothing points that way.
There are other elements that scream that whatever happened was a spur of the moment murder or accident that was staged. I just can not bring myself to anything premeditated in this case. Thinking that 3 calls to Dr Beuf were even anything "out of the ordinary" for PR and JBR and to think it is premeditated on that alone is a great leap for me.
Wow KS! Great job on putting all that down and well thought out. I appreciated reading it. No snark or shade to anyone you mentioned, which is oftentimes hard for me to do when thinking of some of the people connected. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteGreat post Keiser and I agree with your points.
ReplyDeleteVery good Keiser.
ReplyDeleteThanks guys. I got a new Galaxy S7 that I can actually add quotations with, add spacing between lines and type pretty good with. Should cut down on my deletions of posts because of typos. Thank God.
ReplyDeleteAfter all I've read regarding the pineapple, it seems the majority of experts opined it was inconclusive in terms of it helping establish the time of death and the earliest it could have been eaten.
ReplyDeleteI think it would be risky for the prosecution to introduce it as evidence of an "intruder" JonBenet knew and followed downstairs before he or she killed her.
Mike G.
Sorry, I must be missing your point yet again. Why would a prosecutor (of a Ramsey, I assume) introduce the intruder theory at all?
DeleteCC
I agree with C.C on this one. The pineapple is one of the few things I have never heard PR or JR try to use to as evidence of an intruder. Possibly, they even realize how ridiculous that would sound.
DeleteIf I recall correctly, John Ramsey mentions the pineapple as intruder evidence when questioned by Lou Smitt. I believe it's a black and white video. Vague as hell I know haha.
DeleteThat sounds vaguely familiar, Zach, and if I wasn't so tired (or lazy) I'd check the interview on acandyrose.
DeleteMy question to Mike was why the prosecutor would be talking about the intruder theory at all, but after mulling it over, I think he may have meant to say JR's defense counsel. No big deal.
CC
Nice try, Keiser. And some day, if you ever murder someone under similar circumstances you'll have a great opportunity to show John how a proper kidnap staging should be done.
DeleteJust because the scenario I've outlined does not meet your standards of how a proper crime should be planned, that has no bearing on what John's thinking might have been. And there are all sorts of things that have never occurred to any of us that might have prompted him to pre-plan in the manner I've suggested.
This note was carefully thought out, carefully executed, and filled with movie references that most people would not be able to recall on the spur of the moment. There is no way this could have been written by an hysterical woman who had just lost her precious daughter either by some "accident" she herself caused, or by some action on the part of her son.
While it's true that John had been nicknamed "the ice man" and, unlike Patsy, may well have been able to keep his head after the brutal murder of his daughter, the complexity of the note does suggest the possibility of pre-planning, which is why I've considered it. The questions you've raised make sense for sure, but they are also full of assumptions, as we have no way of knowing could have been going on in John's mind at that time.
I too dismissed the possibility of a pre-planned crime for years, partly because it seemed so unlikely to me that John would want to write a hand written note if he had had time to print one out using a computer. But at some point I realized that a printed note would actually be much easier to trace than a carefully disguised hand written note. And when I thought more about the use of paper from Patsy's notepad, I realized that John may never have suspected that the connection could be made by LE - or if he did, he could still have been planning to get rid of that pad along with all the other evidence before calling the police.
It may sound easy to dismiss certain possibilities because they don't conform to your notion of what seems likely, but when forced to balance all the different elements of this case with one another some tough choices have to be made. If you are unwilling to accept certain things that might seem unlikely to you, then you have the responsibility to account for other things that can only be explained in the very terms you've found so easy to dismiss.
"The staging would have been much better planned and completed. "
DeleteThe staging had been completed, Keiser (it mainly consisted of a ransom note and temporarily hiding JB's body). It was only after Patsy called 911 that additional staging had to be added because dumping the body (therefore letting decomposition destroy any evidence of sexual abuse) was no longer an option, thus John needed to do a little "improvising".
Doc - as they say on ESPN, C'MON MAN!!! Your whole post above is wild speculation. We don't know if Patsy was hysterical at all. Most experts have concluded it looks like her handwriting, not his. Even if you want to throw that out, you have completely hung your hat on the 911 call being made by Patsy as the eliminator of her being involved. There is nothing to say that BOTH John and Patsy wrote the note. One of them helping with the verbage and one actually writing it.
Delete-J
"There is nothing to say that BOTH John and Patsy wrote the note. One of them helping with the verbage and one actually writing it."
DeleteAs you know, J, the person who wrote the note had everything to lose by calling 911, so the only logical inference to be made is that the author and the caller cannot be the same person.....so we don't need to go round and round in this circle again. :)
HA...Ms D - I just want to make it absolutely clear that I don't subscribe to the "Patsy wasn't involved because she dialed 911" theory. We don't have to go through it again, but just because that was Doc's opinion, there is absolutely nothing factual about it. For me, there is a gigantic pile that I honestly can barely see over of all the reasons as to why I believe Patsy was very involved in the staging of this crime.
Delete-J
Fine, J, throw out the Patsy/911 call; I'm OK with that. The bottom line for me is that it simply makes no sense for two intelligent, well-educated, seemingly normal adults to stage a kidnap/murder rather than call 911 after an accident. No sense. None. 'Splain that to me, Lucy.
DeleteCC
J and Zed - thank you kindly for the very convincing and thoughtful BDI arguments. I am in agreement, and believe diamondil had it spot on by saying that perhaps BR and JBR went to the basement to look for presents. Patsy saying she ripped into them because she forgot what was wrapped is suspicious - she would have carefully pulled back a piece of tape and fold back some paper. Ripping into it seems like something a kid would do and not an adult who had wrapped the presents and would have to rewrap them all.
ReplyDeleteJBR peed her bed, brought her pillow and went to BRs room as usual, found him not in bed, went to the kitchen finding him eating pineapple. She took a piece. BR had the flashlight there because he had snuck down to either eat and/or finish putting together or playing with his new toy. They went to the basement to look for presents and he hit her in the head w the flashlight as she tried to tear into what he suspected were his presents. Prodded her w the train tracks when she wouldn't get up, told his dad later who staged.
I know many on this blog say How cold a parent go they the crazy garotte and paintbrush penetration to hide the accident. JR had lost one kid, another dead now, he sure as hell wasnt going to lose BR. The more heinous looking the crime, the less people would think it was a family member.
I still think Docs theory w the ransom note works w Patsy not being involved. Burke either woke up his dad or JR went down on his own and looked for him/her. JR wanted to spare waking Patsy and her seeing her darling child dead. Maybe he also wanted to spare her, given that she was a cancer patient with her own internal problems, the truth that her son killed her daughter. So he stages, writes the note, and hopes he can dump the body and convince her it was an intruder. But she called (yes, he didn't think it through that she wouldn't finish reading before being impulsive and call police) and then he had to tell her at some point. He used the hour he was missing to finish or change staging that he hadn't expected since he thought he could dump the body and convince them it was a kidnapping.
For me, the time btwn the head blow and the strangulation proves to me it was an accident followed by staging. Everything about Burkes behavioral issues from Kolars book also convinced me he could have been jealous and had issues w JBR.
I can't find any major hole in this theory. The major hole in the JDI theory is that there its inconclusive that she was previously molestes by John.
Thank you! E
"JR had lost one kid, another dead now, he sure as hell wasnt going to lose BR. The more heinous looking the crime, the less people would think it was a family member."
DeleteSo tell me - why, after John and Patsy deciding to stage a kidnapping with ransom clearly being the motive - did one, or both, decide to mutilate their dead daughter's vagina? That was an added flourish that was superfluous and in no way lined up with the kidnapping story - sexual motivation was not even HINTED at in the ransom note, which I'm sure the author/authors would have been certain to include if their goal was to cast doubt on the intruder's motive. Surely if they're going to put themselves through the trauma of violating their beloved child's genital region, they would have also spent an equal amount of time including a pedophile motive in the note as they did on the delivery/ransom/beheading etc?
So what mainstream movie quotes could he/she/they come up with that would fit that into the ransom letter? It's icky either way.
DeleteIt's a moot point as far as I'm concerned, diamondlil, because the note was written by a person who concocted the kidnapping ruse solely to avoid any sexual abuse ever being discovered. It was all supposed to begin, and end, as a kidnapping with the victim never being returned. No garrote, no duct tape, no bindings, no broken window, no blood/urine stained panties, no broken paintbrush handle, just a note and a missing child - that's all the plan consisted of. Once you realize this, you'll see it's not actually complicated at all.
DeleteMs D - So you are saying there was no garotte in the plan? That means you are saying John didnt make the garotte and put it on JBR until Patsy made the 911 call. He made the garotte and put it on JBR before the police arrived...without Patsy knowing where he was.
DeleteYep, makes a lot of sense!!! :S
Your claim of the mutilation does not even have an agreement of experts where some said digital, but besides the point, we know these
Deletefacts: that LE didn't find her, John did, and no one ever went to trial. Hunter, Lacy, Smit and all the Ramseys said they didn't do it.
With access to household cleaners and paint supplies, possibly paint thinner or turpentine in the basement I'd think that would destroy more evidence of internal previous injuries than a narrow paintbrush and wouldn't take more time.
But a thorough job wasn't necessary for the perp/s to get away with it.
I doubt the decision by the DA would've been any different if it was a no body case.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"Ms D - So you are saying there was no garotte in the plan? That means you are saying John didnt make the garotte and put it on JBR until Patsy made the 911 call. He made the garotte and put it on JBR before the police arrived...without Patsy knowing where he was.
DeleteYep, makes a lot of sense!!!"
Yes, it does actually, Zed, (I never said John twisted the garrote around JB's neck in the short window of time between Patsy calling 911 and the police arriving - you just made that bit up yourself) because, as we ALL know, John went missing for an hour and a half and that was when most JDIs believe he worked on the extra staging that was necessary now that he knew LE were going to find JB's body and probably with his fingerprints all over her - figuratively and literally. It is not news to you that John probably completed his staging in that ninety minutes, it has been mentioned hundreds of times here.
I'm sure that's why the materials used for the garrote were all taken from the basement - LE were upstairs, so what was in the basement was all he had available to him at that time. And I still wonder if he had to break that basement window to get in - or out - that morning in the hopes of not being detected by LE, who were inside and possibly had a view of the staircase to the basement, which would explain why he concocted the story about having broken it last summer.
Your timeline is off from the reports. Child is not in her room at 5:45am. So head strike had to have happened prior to that. But strangulation is said to come 45 minutes to what 2 hours.
DeleteSo by now the house has a number of people in the home and had been downstairs. So by 7:45 am John is doing all that with people upstairs and now the sun is up, and you have him also either going in or out that cobwebby, dirty window sill area with clothes that no one reports that he is all grungy, and no neighbors see him at the window area.
Surely by that time of the morning someone has noticed lots of cars at the Ramseys.
No reason not for the parents fingerprints to be on the clothing of their own child.
I guess I wasn't getting the idea that you JDIs believe that the actual murder took place while the house was packed with people upstairs and folks going outside.
But decomp odor was already noticable on the body even tho she was in a cool room.
Nope, I do not find your timeline probable.
"I guess I wasn't getting the idea that you JDIs believe that the actual murder took place while the house was packed with people upstairs and folks going outside."
DeleteNo one said that, diamondlil. Didn't you read my comment further upstream? I am aware that John strangled JB within 45 mins to two hours after the head blow, long before LE were called, but I have doubts that the garrote itself was the murder weapon. I believe she may have been strangled by other means (investigators asked a lot of questions about a scarf belonging to John Ramsey. Or, as I suggested earlier, xmas garland - that's probably unlikely, though it would account for the garland fragments in her hair). I believe the garrote was part of John's later staging because such a device would be keeping in line with a murder by a foreign faction. I just can't see John, upon finding JB still alive after the blow to the head, deciding the best course of action would be to fashion a crude version of a garrote in order to finish her off, when he could just have easily have done the deed without the paintbrush handle - and the cord used for the garrote looked quite flimsy, not the best choice of material for a strangulation.
Unless, of course, the garrote was used as part of some erotic asphyxiation "game".....but I'm not sold on that.
Have to say this new blog entry and everyone's input has been so easy breezy to read along.
ReplyDeleteAnd even tho we don't all agree on some things, no pitchforks come out. So thanks again DocG, and to the new and seasoned case followers here. Because of your work or life experience it helps me to see more of the hows or whys that I may not have considered before.
Right, Lil - great to get back to our conversation. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have a renewed appreciation for Doc's well-run blog and my fellow armchair detectives after our hijack experience of the last few weeks. Whew.
DeleteCC
Whew is right CC! lol. Someone said that DocG had the patience of Job and he was very patient and diplomatic. I think I got a blister scrolling past the kerfluffle
Deleteand oddly it came on the heels of another dust up that occurred on a blog I read that lists missing persons, the charley project. Think the moon was full during the timeframe.
Zed, you've likely seen the 12/26 timeline. Look how close from Patsy's calls to when LE, friends, pastor arrive and how early LE is in basement as well as Fleet and then the time John is arranging for the money.
ReplyDeletehttp://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682461/December%2026
So that would be quite the crime multi-tasking with a house full of people, while keeping up with the 'never let them see you sweat' composure.
You can call me crazy but my JDI theory is based on the fact that John brought JB up from the basement and placed her under the tree. As a gift for Patsy. Saved by the child, victory. Wife is healed through human sacrifice and Jonbenet won't have to go through a cancer battle ( their own words). She is better off. It explains also their lack of emotion and them wanting to move on. It explains why she died on Xmas evening. Maybe in their sick heads Jonbenets genital issues were a red flag. She will end up suffering like Patsy. Disturbed people on meds who are also religious ... dangerous combo.
ReplyDeleteSC.......is that you?! :D
Deleteno
DeleteA slight correction, it was Det. Arndt that moved the child close to the tree, after John first placed her on the floor.
DeletePatsy was in remission at that time.
How does that explain she needed to have died on Christmas eve?
The Ramsey tribe had planned a major cruise, that wasn't cheap. If the intention was always murder, why not wait for the cruise and have her go overboard?
It seems like a leap to fear ovarian or genital cancer in a 6 year old, rather than first suspect something more treatable like an STD or that the infections were caused from e coli, from either poor wiping, or someone else not washing their own hands properly, and the like.
But we know that both children's medical records were sealed up tight by the parents, so if either of their children were being treated for sexually transmitted infections in the past, no one will ever speak about that. The doctor threatened to burn the records.
Is doctor Beuf still alive? I aleays felt he knows something.
DeleteI don't know without having to Google it. If he was a good pediatrician I would think he should have known quite a lot from his Ramsey patients as well as having an opinion of the mother, or whomever was the one to be present during most of the office visits. Didn't he also Rx some tranqs or sedative to Patsy after Jonbenet's body was found?
DeleteI came across discussion of Dr. Beuf the other day, where he does provide some medical testimony. Had not seen it before. And also the relatively rare photo of Patsy with her hands on her throat at JonBenet's grave can be viewed on this page.
Deletehttp://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?830-The-Doctor-is-IN!/page4
GS
I thought that could happen - that SC would just come back as another hat. If so posing as another Anonymous would make it hard for Doc to know how to permanently block, right? How frustrating.
ReplyDeleteMs D, I want to answer your much earlier statement about the sexual penetration not being necessary. That it was done certainly supports the JDI theorem, that it was done to coverup prior abuse, etc. But you are in a little bit of danger there as it could also take you outside the house to an intruder scenario (as discussed in here previously and discounted for various reasons). So I am going to say in support of the PDI scenario yes, the assault wasn't necessary. Since there was NEVER a plan to kidnap I think P thought the assault would point toward a male intruder, and that is why it was done. If it really was her, it could have been important to her to do something that would send LE in the direction of a male intruder once the body was found and autopsied. Not herself.
It is not SC. But if you wanna discuss only one or two theories, no problem. I can go back to just reading.
Deletewhy clean her up then. this proves someone wanted to hide the sexual part.
DeleteNot necessarily. ME swabbed JB's pubic area and thighs and found it to be JB's blood, not semen or urine. The droplets may have seeped out postmortem, but the wiping could have been done earlier, after she used the bathroom or wet the bed. Not necessarily after a sexual attack or to cover up for a sexual act.
DeleteWe've finally been able to see the pics tho of how much urine did soak the oversized undies as well as the boys longjohns she was wearing.
DeleteDo you recall if it was ever stated that her clothing was damp or dry when she was brought upstairs?
Besides decomp odor, I would think the odor of urine should've been noticed. But then again, that area on the carpet with urine.
Come to think of it, all the folks that went down there didn't see or smell that??!!
Apparently the killer didn't care to put any towels down, spray some Lysol or Odor Ban on that.
And I think only males were in the basement that morning?
Scientific studies show women have a better sense of smell than men (so if a woman thinks she can smell a natural gas leak, listen up men!)
Maybe the reason the killer left an unflushed toilet in the basement, to draw the attention away from odor coming from the carpet.