Newcomers to this blog are advised to begin with the first two posts, Just the Facts, Ma'am and Case Solved, which explain in very general terms why I believe I've solved this case. Some important questions are answered in the following post, Misunderstandings, Misconceptions, Misdirections. After that feel free to browse whatever topics might interest you (see blog archive).

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Friday, June 2, 2017

Casey Anthony?

Interesting. There seems to be more interest here in Casey Anthony than Steven Avery. So be it. As for me, if I don't see a clear path to the truth I prefer to stay out of it.

104 comments:

  1. Once I learned that the mass searches for Chloroform never happened, and the one single search for it only was looking up the definition after a friend posted a joke about it, I knew 1st degree murder was out.

    But Caylee did not dump herself in a shallow grave. Her mother did. And lied about it, and mislead investigators, obstructing their search long enough for the cause of death to be obscured by decomp - almost as if that was the intention. That's evidence of child abuse and manslaughter, at the very least. If Casey is unwilling to take the stand and convincingly testify as to what happened, then guilty as charged IMO.

    The defense got lucky with a very sympathetic jury that believed no cause of death = reasonable doubt any crime occurred.

    Luckily most juries aren't that stupid or naive. One here in California recently convicted a man of 1st degree murder, and they did not even have a body, let alone cause of death. It turns out there isn't a free pass to murder in the US just because you're smart enough to hide the body.

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    1. Whoa. "If Casey is unwilling to take the stand . . .then guilty as charged"??? What Soviet Bloc country do you think we live in, Matty?

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    2. As you know, I thought the evidence presented at trial was sufficient BRD to convict of child abuse and manslaughter. I would be willing to consider otherwise if she offered convincing testimony demonstrating her innocence.

      Of course, in the end, it didn't matter, because the jury didn't believe any crime occurred BRD. The case is over and done with now.

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    4. Happily, in this country (Much as I despise her and the murder of her child), she need do nothing of the kind.

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  2. "As for me, if I don't see a clear path to the truth I prefer to stay out of it."

    My position is, once double jeopardy prevents the accused and acquitted from ever being tried again, and all potential avenues for civil prosecution have been exhausted, the truth and the search for it becomes pointless at best, dangerously quixotic at worst.

    Mike G

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  3. Long time since I read up on the Anthony case, I'll have to read again. I do recall though, if you turned left from the Anthony home to the bottom of the rd where the junction is, something about a house name similar to zenaIda. Turn right, and Caylee was found a short distance on the right. Very close to the anthony residence. I remember looking on Google Street view.

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    2. Thanks, Evie. How was your last cruise?

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    3. Ah not going till October cc thanks.

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  4. Indeed, the 84 chloroform searches never happened. There was also no evidence Caylee was ever in Casey's car. There goes the state's capital case.

    The rest seems to be:
    1) Despite the searches, the family obviously knew Caylee was dead.
    2) Casey lied a lot about Caylee's whereabouts and was good at it (I guess.)
    3) Therefore Casey is probably a sociopath and killed her daughter.

    The problem is 2 seems as true as George and Cindy as it does of Casey - just like 1 does. They're all suspects, but for some reason George's testimony is taken as gospel. It's the same problem in the Ramsey case with John.

    Aside from the phantom chloroform searches and the phantom body in the car, the mainstream narrative hinges on George's testimony about the last time he saw Caylee. As the jury saw, George is clearly lying about this. If he is lying about this, then George was there too when Caylee died!

    If he was there too, then no wonder there's his duct tape on the body and she's buried like one of George Anthony's dogs.

    Further, any look into molestation in this case throws up several red flags. It seems George feared he could be Caylee's father. There was even a DNA test for both George and Lee, to put an end to such speculation. Much like the Ramsey case, all the other motives are silly. Casey killing Caylee to get back at Cindy and hiding her body then secretly communicating the body's whereabouts to police doesn't make nearly as much sense as her death needing to be hidden because if George called 911 then signs of molestation might be discovered.

    Oh and who led those phantom searches for Caylee?

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    1. Caylees hair with a death band, adipose from a dead body and a horrific death smell was found in the car. That was proof Caylees was in the trunk. The only reason Casey got off was because they only prosecuted her for murder one and no lesser charges. The jury would have convicted but they didn't feel there was enough for murder one.

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    2. Caylee's hair there is proven. The claims of a death band and adipose tissue were thoroughly vetted at trial and the jury ignored it for a reason. The death smell is again taking George's testimony.

      The jury also gave her a not guilty for manslaughter. As I understand, they could've said she was guilty of second degree murder too. None of that can be proven. What can be proven is that Caylee was buried with George's duct tape in the way George buries his pets.

      Most importantly, as was shown in the trial, if Caylee decomposed in the trunk the evidence would have been much more obvious and apparent.

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    3. George and Casey both lie about the last time they saw Caylee. Why? They were there. That's what the jury believed.

      The absurdity felt with the not guilty verdict is the idea that the death was an accident. The jury left that possibility open, perhaps because even that was less absurd than the state's case. The death was no accident. The body was hidden. The body was hidden in George's way with George's things, like he buried his pets with his duct tape.

      Caylee was found without shoes. It suggests she died in the home. When you remove George and Casey's lies, it's apparent both were home at the hour of her demise. No, and again no that Casey poisoning and duct taping her to death in her car is more plausible than George having an accident while molesting Caylee as Casey slept through the morning.

      I was in the "Casey did it" camp once, so like with the Ramsey case, I sympathize. At the same time, I feel like the perp can be found with a much more simple look at the case than some might suggest. A little girl was killed at home. Did the man of the house do it? You can't rule it out.

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    4. And just what was "the hour of her demise"? And where do you come by this information?

      How is duct tape covering where the child's mouth and nose would have been on her skull indicative of ". . . George having an accident while molesting Caylee"?

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    5. The hour of her demise was at home on the 16th. Casey was online at home after George said she left, when he is obviously lying, remembering every detail about Caylee's outfit. Casey's phone activity suggests Caylee was dead by 4, probably earlier.

      See this timeline: https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/32r6bw/casey_anthony_revisited_proof_that_george_is_lying/

      The duct tape wasn't covering the mouth and nose. You guys have a lot of media myths. It was attached to her hair. The duct tape is George's duct tape. The duct tape was likely covering the opening, where one's head is near, which is how George buried his pets. George got rid of the body, sorry. If he got rid of the body, he likely did the crime.

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    6. None of this absolves Casey of the crime she was charged with, which is aggravated manslaughter of a child, which she would be guilty of even in this (unsupported) scenario. Since the crime is a parent knowingly and willingly putting their child in a hostile environment that had a likelihood of leading to injury or death, which keeping them in an abusive environment would certainly qualify.

      Nothing is going to absolve this jury of their boneheaded decision.

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    7. I know somebody who was an alternate on the case. Had 2nd degree murder been on the table, she would have been found guilty.

      The baffling part is how she wasn't charged with child endangerment.

      -J

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    8. Ashton should have realized from the saturation media coverage that there would be either a change of venue or an imported jury and that it would be sequestered, and promptly modified his charges accordingly.

      An out-of-town jury doesn't share the community's need for justice (or vengeance, as the case may be), and a sequestered one tends to bond as a group and follow one or two natural leaders.

      And you never, ever seek the death penalty in a circumstantial case.

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  5. We could say that Casey also lived in the same home and had access to the duct tape too could we not?. If there is any truth in Baez account of what happened that he put forward in court, then why did he say after leaving the court and travelling past an apartment that Casey reportedly said to him, oh look that's where zanny lives. Almost as if he's admitting he got her off but actually she's still lost the plot. Also I think Ashton underestimated Baez ambition to reach the top with this high profile case that would make him.

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    1. Ashton made a number of mistakes, eve. He tied his prosecution to a cause of death he could not prove; he overcharged and undercharged; he went for the death penalty, which always frightens jurors and makes them look harder for reasonable doubt; he didn't adequately hammer on Casey's many lies; he used an unproven "forensic test" to try to prove the smell of decomposition, when all he needed was testimony from the experienced cops and CSIs who processed the car; the list is endless, and yes, probably includes underestimating Baez, who was no great shakes himself, but had the wit to capitalize on Ashton's errors.

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    2. My thoughts exactly, except you put it better than I ever could.

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    3. You do just fine, evie.

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  6. In addition to access to the duct tape in the family home, Casey probably witnessed the burial of a family pet or two, and thought a garbage bag sealed with duct tape made an adequate shroud.

    It was Cindy, a nurse - not George - who initially reported the smell of decomposition in the car to LE in her second 911 call.

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    1. Cindy had the same access, but she simply didn't bury the pets. George did. That's what is known. The duct tape was regularly handled by George. It doesn't rule Casey out, but it certainly rules George in. It seems to me one is just insisting on the theory to the point of question begging to say Casey watched her dad and copied the burial of the family pets. Even worse to go into what she thought.

      One could maybe concede the point if some other evidence demanded it, but there isn't any other evidence. The evidence is that Casey lied about the last time she saw Caylee. Well, George did too. How does one reconcile these facts? With Casey poisoning Caylee to death in her car?

      Cindy said she was lying to scare Casey in those calls and then eventually hysterical and bullshitting on things like the smell. To that extent, I believe her. The decomposition smell story originates with George when he picks up the car. "I found my daughter's car today and it smelled like there's been a dead body in the damn car." Well, George found it. He drove it back. He didn't make those calls, either.

      Regardless, Cindy a nurse should be treated like a suspect when it comes to her stories as well.

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    2. Casey had a motive. George did not, and absent evidence of child sexual abuse, which you allege and Baez merely implied, that's a spurious allegation with no evidence. Baez propounded that crap in an attempt at a SODDIT defense (Some Other Dude Did It, also known in the trade as the Two Dude Defense), but he couldn't prove it either.

      To that extent at least I agree with Matt about the jury - they mistook "a reason to doubt" for beyond a reasonable doubt, not uncommon in death penalty cases.

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  7. As in the Ramsey case, the evidence or proof can be found in the behavior of the guilty party before, during and after the murder. She didn't want that child, she was in her way. The grandparents were basically raising her. She never reported the child missing. She went out and partied that entire month while her daughter's corpse was rotting in a shallow grave. She led the police on a wild goose chase with one lie after another. She is a murderous psychopath and she got away with it because the jury couldn't bring themselves to go for the death penalty. I agree with CC on this. The prosecution brought the wrong charges.

    What I found most troubling was that there was no law that required a child be reported missing by a parent. If I remember correctly, the law has changed now (Caylee's law). I assumed that it was just a given that a parent would always report their child missing without having to be required law to do so.

    EG

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    1. Nice to be in agreement for a change, EG. Ashton should have charged Murder Two and possibly simple rather than aggravated manslaughter, giving a jury more wiggle room.

      Caylee's Law was signed into law here in Florida 2008; I know it was pending in several other states and at the Federal level.

      Reddit has an excellent precis of the Anthony case by a poster called HysteryMystery. It's worth a look imo.

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  8. Forgive me for chiming in here. I don't know this case very well so I could certainly be way off base. But I can't resist joining in this fascinating discussion.

    And once again I prefer to concentrate on the logic rather than all the mounds of inconclusive (and highly debated) evidence. What strikes me about this case is the fact that
    Casey waited so long to report her daughter "missing." If she were totally innocent she'd have reported to the police right away. But if she were guilty she would have done the same, no? Why wait all that time if you're covering up the murder of your child, knowing this would certainly make you look suspicious?

    The only explanation I can think of is that she was afraid -- not of the police, but of someone else, possibly the one responsible for Caylee's death. She may still fear that person. Does that make sense?

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    1. It makes sense, and actually fits some of the known facts about the Anthonys' family dynamic.

      Cindy Anthony ruled that particular roost, and was the primary breadwinner; Casey and Caylee lived in her home and were supported by her. Casey apparently had a love/hate, push/pull relationship with her mother and doubtless did not want her to know she was responsible for the death of the granddaughter Cindy adored - but she was, imho.


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    2. The proof is in the pudding - waiting to report the murder worked in her advantage, obscuring the cause of death and confusing the jury.

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    3. That's not really what I meant, CC. It's not that she would have been afraid someone might find out. Because obviously, sooner or later, someone would. It's that she could have been afraid of whomever actually killed Caylee, and might still be covering for that person.

      Either that or she is seriously mentally ill. Is there any evidence of that? Was she hearing voices, behaving oddly, anything like that?

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    4. I know what you meant, but it doesn't apply. Casey's father was a yes-man, an appeaser and doormat to both his wife and daughter. Her mother was, by turns, over-indulgent and autocratic. They seemed more intimidated by their spoiled, willful daughter than the other way 'round.

      No voices or other overt signs of mental illness; just a pathological liar and narcissist.

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    5. And, as with our case, it's clearly a family member.

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    6. Doc - BINGO! she waited over 30 days to report her missing and if you listen to the 911 call, the 911 operator says exactly that! In fact, Cindy was the one to make the frantic call....Casey didn't even want to be on the call. Had Cindy not made the call, who knows how long Casey would have waited.

      Imo, Casey started dating a DJ who was involved in club promoting. Casey saw this as a possible career for her and she wanted her life back. Kaylee was a burden to her.

      -J

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    7. Indeed, the 31 days is seen in a very different light when one doesn't fall for George's con and realizes "he was there".

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    8. http://www.clickorlando.com/news/cops-prosecutors-botched-casey-anthony-evidence

      Read the article and judge for yourselves. Sheriff computer investigators did not include the Mozilla Firefox searches performed by Casey. They only included the searches from Internet Explorer in the spreadsheet they produced for the prosecution. Had they done so they would have found searches for “foolproof suffocation,” "how to make chloroform," "neck breaking," and "death". In their defense the sheriff’s office claimed they were never told to search for “suffocation.”

      Of course, Baez, claims it was George doing the searches because he was suicidal. Baez is on very shaky ground for this claim. Browser records indicate Casey's password-protected account is the only one that generated a login to her AIM account, as it did just before the “foolproof suffocation” search.

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    9. As I've said many times, I don't think much of "the evidence" because for every piece of "evidence" there are two equal and opposite interpretations. Formula for going in circles.

      What bothers me most about this case is not any of the evidence but the very deep mystery of why Casey didn't report her daughter missing for so long. It's not enough to say she was just interested in her own pleasure or she refused to deal with what had happened. Even after this case is "solved" to everyone's satisfaction (if ever), I'll still be puzzled by that question.

      What is suggests to me is that she was and still is covering for the person who did it, someone she must be deathly afraid of. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. But I know so little about this case that I won't insist. I'd love to hear some other theories, though.

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  10. Next to the Ramsey Case, the cold case mystery I find most compelling is the identity of the Northern California Zodiak killer.

    Gary Stewart, in his 2014 book "The Most Dangerous Animal of All", claims his father, Earl Van Best, Jr., was the killer, a claim later supported by Mike Wakshull, a forensic document examiner, in his book, The End of the Zodiak mystery.

    Interestingly, the Stewart/Wakshull theory of the Zodiak case is as unique and controversial as Doc's theory of the Ramsey case, and for very similar reasons. For those interested, here's a place to start:

    http://zodiacsolved.com/

    Mike G.

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  11. Mike G., I have to agree with you that the Zodiac case is one of the most fascinating cases out there. I have followed it for many years. However there is a problem with the EVB Jr. suspect - a key document Wakshull used to "confirm" EVB Jr. was the marriage certificate between Stewart's mother and EVB Jr. It was later determined that this very document was actually filled out by the Reverend that married his parents. There are other issues that throws shade on the suspect. Stewart supposedly provided DNA evidence that his father was the Zodiac, however, the authorities have never verified a connection, which leads me to believe he is not the killer. Over the years there have been so many "my dad is/was the Zodiac killer" books that it's hard to take any of their claims seriously. I have to place my chips on Richard Gaikowski.

    Fed

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    1. Gary's co-author, Susan Mustafa addressed the authorship of the marriage certificate as follows:

      "We have just uploaded the marriage certificate to the website, as that had not been done yet. We are a work in progress, so we appreciate that you brought this to our attention. We anticipated that the press and others would question its authorship, but there are several factors at play here.

      No. 1: Gary’s mother told him Van filled out all of the paperwork, and she was there.
      No 2: If Van didn’t fill out the paperwork, that would mean that Reverend Fliger was the Zodiac because the handwriting matches the person who filled out that certificate. And we certainly don’t believe Reverend Fliger was the Zodiac.
      No. 3: Check out the free-standing “M” in Fliger’s signature and the “M’s” in the text of the certificate."

      Apparently, much of the "controversy" regarding the letter was stirred up by Steve Holdel, who in addition to believing his father was the Black Dahlia, also believes he was the Zodiak killer. Gary wrote:

      "I actually reached out to him (Hodel) right after his book Black Dahlia Avenger came out because I thought he did a good job providing evidence that his father might have been the perpetrator of the Black Dahlia murder. At the time, I had already discovered that my father was in fact the Zodiac killer, and reached out to Hodel for advice on how I should proceed to bring the case to closure. I don’t know if he was already working on Most Evil, where he paints his father as not only the Zodiac killer, but others (I can’t comment because I didn’t read it, nor will I ever), or whether he began that project after I corresponded with him and he found out that I was going to share my story that I was certain and had proof that my father was the Zodiac killer. Either way, Hodel self-published Most Evil after shopping it around to publishers, which almost made it impossible for The Most Dangerous Animal of All to find a traditional publisher. By the time I showed up, traditional publishers didn’t want to hear anything about the Zodiac killer because they had heard that ‘old song and dance’ before…until they heard my story…and saw my evidence. Steve Hodel commented publicly to my story that he has ‘skin in the game’, meaning he’s not wanting anyone to contradict his claims. I never viewed coming forward with my story as ‘skin in the game’. The moment I knew my father was the only Zodiac killer, and that moment came with finding his name in the ciphers perfectly, reinforced by my literary agent finding his name in the 340 perfectly and backward, as indicated by the backward B, and finally the fingerprint…I knew I had to share the truth…that my father, Earl Van Best, Jr. was, and is, the only Zodiac killer."

      Source: http://themostdangerousanimalofall.com/

      Please don't regard this post as a defense Stewart's theory. I haven't even read his book yet. But if his claims are true, the police are currently investigating EVB, a movie based on his book is in the works, and a TV documentary on the case is forthcoming in July.

      More importantly, however, I'll finish with this question. If Reverend Fliger isn't the Zodiak, and Earl Van Best isn't the Zodiak, what does that have to say about "handwriting analysis" having ruled Patsy "in" and John "out"?

      Mike G



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  12. I have followed the zodiac case for over 10 years!! Glad this was brought up. For the first 8 years I was sure it had to be Arthur Leigh Allen. But now I really don't know. If I had to pick someone today I would pick Ross Sullivan. But I say that with no exclamation mark or authority.

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  13. Perhaps I'll jump back in here. I completely agree with CC's June 5 synopsis above. Casey dominated her parents by virtue of her stealing, her lies, but also because she had the child. Conversely Casey was intimidated by her mother since Cindy was the autocrat in the family and paid the bills - and wanted to be Caylee's mother believing Casey was unfit. Hadn't quite viewed George as a doormat, but it fits. Hadn't he blown family income on a gambling addiction previously?

    J, did you read the link I sent? While it is written by someone with an opinion it "holds water" so to speak. He provides a record of the time frame showing Casey to be both on the phone and the computer around the time Caylee would have been murdered. There are also the phone calls to Cindy's work, one after another during this time frame which one could suppose might indicate Casey wanting to tell her mother something had happened, but failing to do so decided to cover for her neglectful behavior with yet another series of lies. On that same link is also an explanation for the overwhelming chloroform registry coming from the trunk of her car. J, I did listen to the podcast and what I heard there was a frantic 911 call from Cindy and an apathetic Casey when she was put on the line. But I disagree that Casey chloroformed her daughter, as I would have to have the question answered where did she make it.

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  14. Mike G.- bingo! My sentiments exactly. So much for so-called expert document examiners.

    Fed

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    1. Who was the suspect Mark Ruffalo (played the detective; Robert Downey was the journalist) saw at his workplace in the Zodiac movie (really well done, I thought)? There was also a [clandestine?] search of a suspect's home that was suggestive in some respect I no longer recall - same guy? Is this a different suspect than you and Mike are discussing? Sorry to be so ill-informed . . . it's been years since I did any reading on it.

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    2. Hey CC

      The movie was very well done, I agree. BUT, it was heavily based on the theory of Robert Graysmith, who was the cartoonist at the Chronicle at the time and who became obsessed with the case (played by Jake Gyllenhaal). A lot of people disagree with this theory and therefore didn't like the movie as much.

      The suspect you are talking about is Arthur Leigh Allen, who was the number one suspect for the most part. DNA evidence has effectively ruled him out although many believe he may have had someone helping him which I think is absurd. But I do agree that he was a very interesting suspect and as I said I thought it had to be him for many years. Mainly because of the statement from Don Cheney (Arthur's friend who is also in the movie). I learnt many years later that Don Cheney may not be the person I initially thought but I won't dwell on that.

      Needless to say, I now have no idea who did it. The main suspects are:

      Arthur Leigh Allen
      Richard Gaigowski
      Rick Marshall
      Ted Kaczynski

      There is many more and as I mentioned, my favourite at the moment is Ross Sullivan. But really, it's anyones guess and maybe it is someone no one has even named before.

      Fascinating case because he got extremely lucky and in todays day and age he wouldn't stance a chance.

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    3. CC....the trailer they searched was Allen's. Near the end of the movie, Graysmith is seen with Rick Marshall in his basement searching for a video Allen was reputed to have had made of his victims. It was a creepy (and very well produced) scene, as was the entire movie imo. (How accurate it was, I don't know).

      I disagree with Zed on Marshall and Kaczynski still being key suspects. I read that investigators officially "closed" the case a couple years ago, but Gary Stewart claims they haven't. I haven't read any posts of his on his web-site since one back in February of this year.

      How much this is a DNA case is unclear, but Stewart still holds out hope it is. I can only imagine his disappointment if recent tests cleared his dad and, subsequently, the movie based on his book was cancelled. But it's going on three months now, and no word from him, and still nothing on the internet regarding the movie. I doubt if Doc ever went three months without posting a single comment.

      Mike G

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    4. Mike, few incorrect things in your post. Graysmith was not with Rick Marshall in his house and was not looking for anything Allen related in the house. He was looking for Marshall related evidence. To date, Marshall remains the favourite suspect to many ex LE officers. And plenty of online web sleuths still believe it was him. Lawrence Kane is getting very popular as is Ross Sullivan (hardly anyone knew who he was when I first started liking him).

      I do agree how much of a dna evidence case this is. I would also say the chance of Earl Van Best being the zodiac slim/next to none.

      If only LE didnt call in a wrong description of Zodiac after the Stine murder, he would have been caught red handed. So disappointing.

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  16. This article shows s picture of EVB next to the old police stetch of the zodiac killer. Not saying EVB was the zodiac killer.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/16/us/zodiac-killer-son-book/index.html

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    1. Yes...the resemblance is remarkable. Then again, Zodiak was described by eye witnesses as "stocky", which EVB clearly was not. May have been his bulky outfit making him look heavy.

      Mike G

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    2. Here is Ross sullivan compared to the same picture. Widows peak and all and timeline aligns perfectly with him. Best handwriting comparison Ive seen if it can proven he did write the desktop poem.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKielPnUkAAULKf.png

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  17. CC, You're right Robert Downey played the part of Paul Avery, A SF Cronicle journalist, and Jake Gyllenhaal played the part of Robert Graysmith iirc. Graysmith wrote two books on the subject. His suspect was Leigh Arthur Allen, although Graysmith was convinced he had the right guy, the authorities were never able to nail him down for the crimes.

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    1. Arthur Leigh Allen was his name.

      See my above post for more info. I could literally talk about this case for days on end.

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    2. ALA (Arthur Leigh Allen) was ruled out on handwriting, although many dispute this. Some even say he was ambidextrous although I don't think that was ever confirmed.

      But the big one was dna (behind the stamps on the envelope) and fingerprints...he was ruled out on both. Some say the fingerprint can't be proven to be Zodiac's though..makes for a frustrating case. There is the sketches. He was a very big bald guy at the time and does not even remotely resemble any sketch.

      Saying that there was a lot of other "smaller" stuff which made him a good suspect...but it was circumstantial.

      There is some good videos of ALA on youtube when he was still alive...where is proclaims his innocence. Fascinating fella.

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    3. Thanks, Fed (and Zed). Always good to see you here, RF - it's been too long. I read at least one of Graysmith's books, and another, on the case, but as I say, it's been many years.

      I found it fascinating as well, because it and Ted Bundy were my first acquaintance with serial murders, and murders with no apparent motive other than the act of killing itself. Revelatory, to me, at that time, when an undergraduate from a then-obscure small town.

      There was DNA? From what source? And it ruled out Allen? Can you tell me more?

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    4. The DNA came from behind the postage stamps on the letters he mailed to the Chronicle. Some say he may have had someone assist him with licking the stamps. ALA did not match this DNA. Happy to answer any question on this case as I've been reviewing for close to a decade.

      I read Graysmith's book many moons ago and that is one of the reasons why I initially suspected ALA. But I found out that Graysmith embellished MANY facts and even told blatant lies. He wanted the Zodiac to be ALA so bad. Was ALA a good suspect? Yes, most definitely. He still is. But I'm off the ALA train and no longer thing it was him. Some of the other suspects include:

      Ross Sullivan (my current favourite)
      Larry Kane
      Kjell Qvale
      (and there are many others)

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    5. Zed...how about the blood on Paul Stine's flannel shirt?

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    6. What about it? This was Stines blood. There was no zodiac blood on the shirt that im aware of. There was a bloody fingerprint on the taxi though thought to be the zodiacs. The zodiac stated he used to use glue on his fingers to hide fingerprints...who knows if that was true. The stine murder was different to his other murders though, which makes me think this was done for a reason. Gloves were also found left behind in the car.

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  18. Just as a side note, I happened to venture by the old Ramsey home last week. The current owners have planted bushes and trees which tend to cover up much of the house. Couldn't see much of the front, although I must say I was a bit creeped out by the sight of a child's bike laying in the front yard.

    Fed

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    1. I was last in Boulder in 2008, and saw the house then. I knew that street well, as it's on University Hill, and only a few blocks from CU. There's a very, very creepy statue of three children on a bench, life-size, in the side yard. Did you happen to catch a glimpse of it? I e-mailed a pic of it to Doc not long ago. THAT'S creepy!

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    2. Did anyone ever repair the basement window? (just kidding!)

      Mike

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  19. Correction...Arthur Leigh Allen, not Leigh Arthur Allen.

    Fed

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  20. Update on Avery case...
    http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/local/steven-avery/2017/06/07/kathleen-zellner-files-1-000-plus-page-document-steven-avery-case/378077001/
    Minnesota Linda

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    1. Thanks Linda. Zellner not sounding too confident. No mention that hes innocent. Simply that evidence may have been planted (i have thought key may have been planted and the car found earlier) and he deserves another trial...which I guess is true. But he will be found guilty again if that goes ahead and I think Zellner has realised that.

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  21. I think author Tom Horan did a good job of debunking the myth that were ever was a Zodiac Killer. He has done a couple of radio shows and podcasts as well. His website (and others) have almost all of the original case files.

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  22. For those interested, "Zodiak" is on again tonight on the VICE channel from 7:30-11:00 pm EST.

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    1. Thanks Anon....I think I'll watch that!

      EG

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    2. EG, I wouldn't waste your time lol.

      There WAS a Zodiac killer, no ifs or buts. Crazy what people will come up with to make some coin.

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    3. Zed...

      I did watch it. From what I watched last night, they pretty much said it was that Arthur Lee Allen guy. Are you saying it wasn't him? If not, who do you think it was?

      EG

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    4. I dont know who the Zodiac is. No one knows. Could it be ALA? Sure. But I don't think it was as besides an incriminating story from a friend, there isn't much evidence against him.

      If you read above, my current favourite is Ross Sullivan but I have absolute no confidence in that either. Zodiac got very lucky after the Stine murder.

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  23. What's interesting is how some serial killers love nothing more than to have their manifestos printed in the paper. BTK, Son of Sam, and The Zodiac killer with his codes. They enjoy taunting the police, playing games, wanting to be thought to be highly intelligent and too clever to be caught. Was it thought that the Zodiac had a military background?

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  24. There are several others who believed the Zodiac killer was Richard Gaikowski, Retired Fed. Articles written by Richard Grinnel from ZodiacCiphers as well as Tom Voight, amateur sleuth tracking the case for years and owner of website ZodiacKiller.com have laid out a pretty convincing case. Richard Gaikowski trained as a medic in the army - military style "wing walker" boot impressions were found to and from the Zodiac killer's 3rd attack at Lake Berryessa 9/27/69 as well as other indications Gaikowski had army medic training.

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  25. How much DNA saliva testing did they do of people in Allen's circle of friends or business associates (secretary's in particular) who may have licked the stamps on the letters he sent? Anybody?

    Mike

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    1. Not sure Mike. I know they tested Don Cheney. There was no match.

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  26. Quite comprehensive article regarding DNA testing was posted at the following, Mike:

    www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-zodiac-killers-dna

    But it is not clear how extensive and updated from the 2016 article, testing has been done. There is a problem comparing envelopes and stamps from hoax letters. However this article is intricate and comprehensive with this quote from Dr. Cynde Holt as she talks of comparing the envelopes and stamps to Arthur Leigh Allen's brain tissue slice from autopsy as a point of reference to either rule in, or out. There was also a hair found underneath one of the postage stamps such that mitochondrial DNA testing could be done, if the root is present. Many letters were lost over the years, but I think you would know more about that having done your own investigations, than I. Intriguing case, however.

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  27. Tom Voigt just put up a very interesting announcement on his website. Maybe the DNA results have finally paid off:

    http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/7763

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  28. Thanks Fed - have to stay tuned to that website as he's promising something he hasn't posted yet, right? Are there any psychological profiles of the Zodiac killer? He would have to be intelligent to be able to create a coding system in his notes, but on the other hand his notes sound unbelievably childish, taunting, as if he has some kind of a grudge, misspelled words, grammatical errors, one who was lacking in education, maybe someone who was incarcerated for a period of time.

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    1. Yep.

      Ross Sullivan was in a mental hospital and was released just before the killings started.

      At the Lake Berryessa murder, Zodiac also claimed he had escaped from deer lodge prison in Montana.

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  29. Yes there are a number of youtube videos with various profilers providing their take on the Zodiac. Search "Zodiac Killer Documentaries." You can find psychological, handwriting, and linguistic analysis which are interesting.

    Fed

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  30. Thank you, I will. One thing I noticed reading the letters from Tom Voight's archive is letters that were penned early in Zodiac's career bear only slight to little resemblance to the letters in mid '70's. Was there an explanation for that?

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  31. According to psychologist Laurence L. Smith:

    "In October of 2015, this author received a personal email from someone stating they were Judith Phillips (as also noted in the email address) and was the former Ramsey photographer and family friend. She told me that there was no bathroom incident that led to her death as had been conjectured by many including myself, given her bed soiling incidents and Patsy possibly having lost patience with her. I could not imagine what other type of accident could have led to her death. She stated that Patsy Ramsey had revealed to her in early 2003 in strict confidence that JonBenet had fallen and tumbled down the spiral staircase from near the second floor to the first floor, with the fall being fatal. Ms, Phillips went on to say that Patsy told her that she was literally dragging JonBenet up the spiral staircase by the scruff of her pajama top that was tightened around her neck by Patsy’s closed fist. This, because JonBenet would not go up the stairs, as she wanted to see some of her gifts still under the Christmas tree on the first floor. Patsy went on to tell Judith Phillips that after hearing gagging sounds from JonBenet she released her clenched fist hold of the pajama top around her neck, and in doing so accidentally pushed JonBenet backwards, with JonBenet losing her balance and tumbling down the stairs to the first floor landing. Ms Phillips further stated that in late 2003, representatives from the D.A.’s office which was in control of the case at the time met with Patsy Ramsey in her Lawyer Mr. Lin Wood’s office in Atlanta office. The result of this meeting was that a plea bargain was reached, wherein Patsy confessed to JonBenet having fallen fatally to her death from near atop the second floor staircase. In return, the D.A.’s office agreed not to pursue any charges of any type against her or any Ramsey family member. Evidently, the D.A.’s office chose not to investigate whether a fall as described by Patsy could have been fatal or not, and ignoring the associated strangulation factor stated in the autopsy report. Shortly after publishing my original book on this case I was told by a private investigator who had become involved in the Ramsey investigation that he had knowledge of a 2003 plea bargain confession between Patsy and the D.A.’s office. Ms. Phillips revelation now confirmed the investigators account to me. He requested that I not use his name lest he experience some form of retribution.

    "It can only be postulated that the Boulder Police Department decision to keep the confession by Patsy Ramsey concealed, was due to defamation suits brought by two people who had been named by the Ramsey’s as having been suspects and had their suits dismissed by U.S. District Judge Julie Carnes on March 31, 2003. Additionally, a 50 million dollar libel and defamation suit brought by the Ramsey’s against former Boulder detective Steve Thomas resulted in an undisclosed settlement. Mr. Thomas had stated in his book ‘ Inside The Ramsey Investigation ’ that he believed Patsy had direct involvement in JonBenet’s death. This undisclosed settlement would have to be revisited if Patsy’s confession was made public. If a Patsy Ramsey confession was officially revealed various law suits against the Ramsey’s that were dismissed would have to be revisited, not to mention exposing the incompetence of Boulder law enforcement during the investigation of JonBenet’s death and then not investigating whether a staircase fall could have been fatal to her upon hearing Patsy’s confession statement." To be cont.

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  32. Continued: "It can only be postulated that the Boulder Police Department decision to keep the confession by Patsy Ramsey concealed, was due to defamation suits brought by two people who had been named by the Ramsey’s as having been suspects and had their suits dismissed by U.S. District Judge Julie Carnes on March 31, 2003. Additionally, a 50 million dollar libel and defamation suit brought by the Ramsey’s against former Boulder detective Steve Thomas resulted in an undisclosed settlement. Mr. Thomas had stated in his book ‘ Inside The Ramsey Investigation ’ that he believed Patsy had direct involvement in JonBenet’s death. This undisclosed settlement would have to be revisited if Patsy’s confession was made public. If a Patsy Ramsey confession was officially revealed various law suits against the Ramsey’s that were dismissed would have to be revisited, not to mention exposing the incompetence of Boulder law enforcement during the investigation of JonBenet’s death and then not investigating whether a staircase fall could have been fatal to her upon hearing Patsy’s confession statement.

    "I emailed current Boulder D.A. Stan Garnett three times to inform him of the plea bargain in 2003 involving Patsy Ramsey, and he replied that he didn’t have the authority to investigate the Boulder Police Department. I wrote the Deputy Director of the CBI (Colorado Bureau Investigation) Ted Mink and informed him of the plea bargain and the ensuing concealment of it by Boulder law enforcement, but he was too bashful to reply to my letter. I talked by phone twice to CBI investigator Greg Sadir and he told me that only the Governor of Colorado could force an investigation of the Boulder police department. The law enforcement structure of Colorado makes it virtually impossible to force the Boulder police department to investigate itself, or be investigated by any other Colorado law enforcement body. The Attorney General’s office does not take investigative action unless prompted to do so by one or more District Attorney‘s. Thus, we can see how unlikely it would be for a Boulder D.A. to request an investigation of the Boulder police department that they interact with and are dependent upon to provide investigative material for in various criminal cases. Only the Colorado governor can force an investigation of any Colorado law enforcement entity. In conclusion, the JonBenet Ramsey case will stay interminably in the same state as it is today, with the case remaining officially open in cold case files, with no effort to ever be made in chasing after an imaginary intruder. It cannot be expected that anyone from the Boulder law enforcement fraternity will go rogue and produce plea bargain documents that would leave many law enforcement officials vulnerable to disciplinary and/or criminal action in a investigation cover-up."

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    1. This guy is either a total charlatan or an easily manipulated dupe. First of all, Judith Phillips turned on Patsy shortly after the murder and would have been an unlikely person for Patsy to confide in. Her husband wrote an indignant book on the case, focusing on Patsy's guilt, but with no mention of the story related above.

      And if JonBenet had been killed by falling down the stairs there would certainly have been no need for a coverup, not to mention one as elaborate as we see in this case. Talk about fake news. Sheesh.

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    2. ...not to mention the fact that nothing....absolutely nothing in the autopsy report suggested injuries consistent with falling down a flight of stairs. There would have been other broken bones, fractures, and contusions all over her body.

      Mike

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    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    4. . . .and under no circumstances would Stan Garnett be unaware of any plea bargain entered into by his predecessor, nor would he be making public statements that he knows who did it and will indict if the evidence comes together.

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  33. Not likely Laurence L. Smith's E-book will put a dent in the universe either.

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    1. I'm surprised you feel that way. Mr. Smith e-published his book in April of 2015, and 3 or 4 months later your once-hero, Hercule, lifted his theory (which was actually Steve Thomas's, just dressed up in psychobabble), and began posting it here as his own.

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  34. I really know nothing about him. Nor am I aware of Hercule's comments. Apparently he's added on to his book, which his website says came out December 1, 2016 - and if it suggested a theory that Patsy was responsible for her daughter's death by dragging her up the stairs and then letting go which caused her to fall, then struck a deal with the BDP, don't you think John would have sued by now? Just a thought. I still do admire Hercule.

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    1. Of course you do.

      Smith's original e-book came out in April, 2015. He updated it to include the Phillips attribution and the plea bargain claptrap last December.

      No, I think nothing of the kind. It's impossible to defame the dead - John has no cause of action against Smith.

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  35. There is a well organized propaganda campaign driven by "friends of John" to foment public suspicion toward intruders, Patsy, Burke, or some combination of the three, as the killer(s) of JonBenet. Is there a Nobel Peace Prize for "Gaslighting"?

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  36. Just curious, any readers here make it to Crime Con this past weekend in Indianapolis? It was a great time! I met some of the investigators that did the CBS special. -MM

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  37. I know the conversation has moved on from Casey Anthony, but if anyone's still interested, I found this blog that lays out a well-researched theory of what actually happened that day. (And it uses evidence in existence, so I think Doc would approve.)

    https://statevcasey.wordpress.com/2011/09/28/mystery-solved/#more-626

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    1. Always a pleasure to see you here, Canuck. Thanks for the link; I'll check it out this evening when I have more time.

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    2. Thanks so much for that link, Canuck. Learning so many of the personal details, as presented there, leaves me extremely moved and saddened.

      I could not help thinking of Hitchcock's great movie, "Psycho," where this man who was so attached to his mother refused to accept her death, never reported it to the authorities, and left her body to rot in the chair where she died and went on with his life as though nothing had happened.

      Is it possible that something similar happened with Casey? That she was unable accept the death of her daughter (for whatever reason -- we may never know) and thus went on living her usual, "normal" life as though nothing had happened? It could have been a form of denial, later bolstered by a series of lies as the truth was catching up with her.

      I wouldn't rule out such a scenario. But I also believe it possible that Cayley could have been murdered by someone Casey knew and was afraid of. In that case, her lies would have been a cover for a truth she was too afraid to reveal.

      If she had actually murdered her daughter herself, then I see no reason for the long delay in reporting it.

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    3. When delving into Casey's background she herself was doted on as a child but there has to be something in that background that would have her think that making up stories and lying was integral to her survival. She pretended to go to work every day for a job she had gotten fired from and take Caylee to a babysitter who didn't exist. I believe this is why Jose Baez, her attorney, floated the story that her father had abused her - and her brother molested her, as some kind of explanation for her construct of a fantasy world and lying.

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  38. Hi Canuck, this is similar to the article I sent J and it's a good one - different link. It shows a timeline and talks about how she would have been on the computer and her phone when the alleged murder would have taken place (and shows it with a graphic display as in the link sent to J. Also that there are other explanations for the high level of chloroform odor in the trunk of her car. Casey was no angel, a liar and a thief, did not report her daughter missing (or dead), likely moved her corpse and drove around with her in the trunk for days, but again, there was 0 evidence she mixed the chloroform anywhere and Ashton did not make his case.

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    1. Right, I think the writer makes a good case for Casey simply being preoccupied with the computer and phone while Caylee got outside and drowned in the backyard pool. It looks like it was the media who branded Casey a partier. Her friends and boyfriend said she wasn't much of a partier at all and she was against drug use. I was surprised to see that the image of her dancing in the hot body contest was considered very out of character for her by people who knew her. It was basically a one-off, yet the media showed it non-stop and used it to vilify her.

      I think her relationship with her mother was contentious at best and it was Cindy's assertion that Casey was a bad mother that led to the atrocious decisions she made after her daughter died. And Casey's boyfriend and another friend testified to her having nightmares during the infamous 31 days and her waking up in the night and crying while she watched videos of Caylee. You're right, she was a thief and a liar and a very immature young woman, but I don't think she was a murderer.

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    2. Really good thoughts, Canuck. The calls to Cindy in rapid succession indicates something happened. When Cindy didn't pick up, wasn't it soon after that Casey's phone is shut off? This would be the time she took her into the garage and put her in the laundry bag, etc., then drove off. If she was afraid of anyone, as Doc brought up, it would be Cindy, and someone with such a low opinion of herself all ready would not want to suffer further berating.

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  39. Also Doc, I re read your June 11 comment about Casey and "the evidence." I agree with you that just because her behavior was highly suspicious - not reporting the death, partying, getting a tattoo, appearing nonchalant and happy, moving out of the house, where was the evidence of murder? Where was the evidence she had chloroformed her daughter and put duct tape over her mouth (as Ashton suggested in his passionate emotional closing argument ("I only hope she was unconscious") or words to that effect. Baez made a good point by showing a photograph that Caylee was able to reach the sliding patio door latch leading out to the pool. The Coroner said she believed the manner of death was homicide, but with skeletal remains there could be no cause of death unfortunately. I would appreciate your input on this case if you would like, this is your blog site. It's just interesting to note as you pointed out, that she concocted a story to explain why no one had seen Caylee over 30 days, when she got busted by Cindy. If it was an accident, why not tell someone immediately. Or since she made lying her lifestyle, why not concoct an accident lie. Very astute Doc.

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