Room for more comments relating to the current spate of media presentations.
NB: I'm pleased to see all the comments, but I am also feeling a bit overwhelmed. Forgive me if I don't respond to all your questions, as I just don't have the time. For those of you new to the case and/or new to this blog: 1. Please post your comments and questions here rather than somewhere else on the blog, or they might not be noticed; 2. If you have questions about any aspect of the case, please use the search mechanism on the upper right of the page before posting a question here. Chances are your question has already been addressed somewhere on this blog. If not, feel free to post it here, and if it's something that has not already been addressed I'll try to answer as best I can.
For a relatively brief and succinct summary of my interpretation of this case, I recommend the post titled Why John?
It's nice to see so many of you reading here. Thanks for your participation.
DocG
PS: Please avoid adding comments to the first few posts or any other posts with lots of comments, as they are too difficult for me to find, and no one else is likely to see them. I won't be responding to such posts anymore. Please DO comment here or on the most recent post where there's sufficient room. Thank you.
So do people think the flashlight is the obvious weapon that cracked JBR's skull? I think given it was wiped down completely it's a very good chance. John's fingerprints would have been on it because he walked Burke to bed. An intruder wouldn't have wasted time wiping it down...they would have just taken it with them and disposed of it.
ReplyDeleteDoc - is it a 100% fact the flashlight had been wiped down. That in itself tells me it's an inside job!!!
Nothing is 100% as far as such evidence is concerned. So no I would not regard it as an irrefutable fact. But I've seen it referred to by reliable sources and I've never seen anyone claim otherwise.
DeleteWiping down the batteries sure sounds like you fear blood in there as much as prints.
DeleteJust a side note: the surface of the flashlight handle might be textured, which would not have been conducive to capturing fingerprints. The batteries, however. . . reminds me that someone in the family was savvy about leaving evidence and had Mindhunter in the bookcase.
DeleteI believe it was the flashlight almost 100% from john using it to bring burke back to his room, why not just use the lights?? Also the fact it was wiped completely clean and the batteries. What also sticks out to me is the bat, that was outside and it had rug fibers on it from the basement
ReplyDeleteIt would appear the handwriting experts are the major impediment to bringing the killer of JonBenet to justice. That one piece of evidence (John ruled out) keeps even the most sophisticated investigators from seeing the truth of what went on in the Ramsey home on the night of 12-25-96.
ReplyDeleteThrow out the handwriting analysis, and suddenly all the pieces of this crime fall neatly into place, as this blog has so meticulously demonstrated over the last few years.
JonBenet was clubbed over the head and then strangled to death 45 - 60 minutes later. Was she being molested in between the time of the initial attack and the choking? It appears both the assault on the head on the strangulation were executed from behind. A father unable to look at his daughter while he brutalized her on Christmas night, molesting and killing her? (John Ramsey remembering the body of his dead child: "She looked so peaceful.")
I doubt very much an "intruder" would have fed the child pineapple just before killing her. That indicates a certain intimacy between the killer and his victim. They were on safe ground, the child being soothed and coaxed into position.
I imagine a scenario where John Ramsey, after being certain that his wife was passed out and his son was safely in bed, crept into his daughter's room and told her it was time for the "secret visit from Santa," taking her into the kitchen and feeding her pineapple while he ran through his fantasy one last time. Perhaps this was to calm her down - and himself, too - just before executing his plan, making certain all the elements were in place and Patsy was assuredly asleep.
There's obviously a sexual component to this crime. It would appear that at some point, JonBenet crossed over some psychological field and became a sexual being in the eyes of her father. On that Christmas night that field became a fever, maybe fueled by fantasy (did JonBenet's father take the molestation a step further that night?).
John Ramsey, I am now convinced (thanks Doc for all your hard work on this case and this blog), killed JonBenet.
Thanks for the supportive comments. I agree with your take on this case.
DeleteI think the flashlight was the weapon used. What I find interesting is when JR was asked about the flashlight, he say's it looks like his, but it's "dirty" his was "clean" hardly used. Why not just say yes, that looks like my flashlight. He seems to be very careful in his answers and adds extra information when not really needed or asked. He also states, he was puzzled where the RN was, they all used the spiral staircase "95%" of the time. The intruder would have to have inside knowledge of that. He said they rarely use the other staircase, so the note was placed where they would find it. Hey JR, I'm 99% sure your intruder theory is bull#$&%!
ReplyDeleteHe designs every answer to make it neither here nor there. Just like they did with Burke.
DeleteIf the blow to her head did not cause any bleeding, what would be the point of wiping down the flashlight, especially the batteries? If John is stating that he indeed used the flashlight to walk Burke back to bed (which is just weird), then he is stating he used the flashlight that night and if his fingerprints were on it that would be the reason why.
ReplyDeleteNow, did Burke say he remembers his dad using the flashlight to walk him back to bed, or did John just say this? If it was just John who stated this, it seems to imply him putting himself with a piece of evidence in an odd manner. Surely you don't need flashlight at that age to find your way around the house. Does he give any explanation as to why he was using the flashlight? Were they playing around? Was it Burke who was holding the flashlight (that seems it would be more likely - it is more of a kid thing to do). Anyway, John is placing himself AND Burke near the flashlight.
To me, what is more incriminating it the pineapple and the fingerprints on the bowl. JBR definitely had partially digested pineapple in her stomach. She had recently eaten pineapple prior to being murdered. That is a fact. No one "remembers" going downstairs with JBR to get her some pineapple. Would it be likely she went down by herself to eat? Could you have even reached anything on her own? (She might have been able to open the refrigerator door on her own but she couldn't have gotten a bowl and spoon on her own). Everyone is evading being around her that night. Everyone is evading placing themselves close to JBR. According to John and Patsy, JBR went right to bed but they have no idea how she got pineapple. Was this ever asked of them? Did they ever come up with any kind of answer as to why she would have the pineapple?
Burke's mention of John with the flashlight is the first I've ever heard of it. I don't recall John ever mentioning that, though it's possible he did.
DeleteThe fingerprints on the bowl were Patsy's. And since she's the housewife of the family I would expect her prints to be on it regardless. JonBenet's fingerprints were not on it. And as we just learned, Burke's prints were not on it either. According to Dr. Phil they were found on the glass, not the bowl (not sure how reliable his take on this is). And the glass might have had nothing to do with the pineapple.
No one has ever confessed to any knowledge of JBR being fed pineapple. And no one has ever offered an explanation as to how pineapple got into her system, or how the bowl of pineapple got onto the kitchen table.
It's possible she could have gotten up on her own that night and fed herself some pineapple. If it was too high for her to reach she could have used a chair. But that seems too much of a coincidence.
My take: if the Ramseys were in it together they'd have had no problem reporting that she'd had some pineapple that evening. If they were covering for Burke, same thing. It's only if one fed it to her and the other knew nothing about it, that it would be necessary for the guilty party to plead ignorance. My theory is that John lured her downstairs for a little treat and then molested and, ultimately, assaulted, her.
Oh and one more thing. There is NO WAY she'd have sat down and eaten pineapple or anything else with someone who did not belong in that house at that time.
DeleteJohn did mention the flashlight on Dr Phil. So did Burke
DeleteSeems possible that John was with Jonbenet alone downstairs the night of the murder, with the lights off to make sure nobody knew they were down stairs. Having the lights off he used a flashlight. Maybe Burke heard them downstairs and thought he didn't have to go to bed yet and started playing with his toy. This alarmed John who took Burke back to his room. Maybe if John was sexually assaulting her and he heard someone coming (Patsy or Burke) and Johnbenet started to scream he hit her over the head with the flashlight in the moment keeping her quiet.
ReplyDeleteThis to me gives a reason why John would have a flashlight and hear Burke coming downstairs to play with a toy.
Good post. Seems logical.
DeleteDoc or anybody, this site convinced me a while back that JR was most likely the killer, but I have been watching all of these specials about the crime just like everybody else and doubt to some degree has crept into my mind about it. These are just some thoughts:
ReplyDelete* Handwriting and other things do point towards PR, BUT if Patsy was involved I see absolutely no reason as to why she calls 911 with the body still in the house.
*IF any of the Ramseys did it, then they could control the crime scene, correct? So, why in the world would the pen and pad of paper be left at the scene? You take all the time to write a RN that is 3 pages long, then proceed to leave the pad of paper and pen in plain site?
*If it was an intentional killing by one of the Ramseys, WHY would you hit her over the head 1st? Wouldn't it just be strangulation to keep it as clean as possible and avoid any blood splatter?
*So, I think the only scenario is an accident and then that also comes with questions. IF it was BR, JR or PR and it was a pure accident, then imo they diall 911! I don't think they go over and strangle her, then proceed to do everything they did.
Im not saying its not the simplest answer which is that a Ramsey did it. But this was a MASSIVE house where anybody could have potentially hidden. The Ramseys are at the party for 5 hours and the note could have been written. Im sure I will get ripped on for this post and I still probably would side with RDI, but there are a lot of details that are just too odd to have such a simple answer.
I believe anything that was already in the house that we know of was left in the house, anything that people speculated were not in the house and used with the crime such as a potential stun gun, rope to strangle Jonbenet, and the gloves were not found.
Delete* Handwriting and other things do point towards PR, BUT if Patsy was involved I see absolutely no reason as to why she calls 911 with the body still in the house.
DeleteAgreed. Handwriting analysis is NOT science. And Patsy was not the only one who could not be ruled out.
*So, why in the world would the pen and pad of paper be left at the scene?
As I see it, these items would have been removed and/or destroyed by John the following day, had he been able to carry out his original plan. Patsy calling 911 prevented him from completing his plan and left him holding the bag in many suspicious ways. He was able to do some last minute housecleaning, but didn't have time to cover all the bases. The notebook was there in the kitchen. He knew it would be examined by the police and it was too late for him to do anything about that, so he offered it as evidence. Also he may not have realized the note could be traced to that pad.
*Why hit her over the head first?
I think he saw that as the most "merciful" way to kill her, as she would feel no pain and would never know who did it.
And yes the house was massive and someone could have been hiding there. But NO intruder would have done all the things that were done that night. See my first two posts for details.
Beckner said they thought possibly an accident had occurred and the parents thought she was dead,and the strangulation was to make it look like an intruder. He also said signs of prior sexual assault, how this fits in with an accident I don't know.
Delete*to add to above, the garrotte was also an unnecessary thing to do and by adding that to the crime a Ramsey would use one of PR's paint brushes sitting right there and draw more attention to them?
ReplyDeleteHaving gone to law school school in Boulder and being a Denver lawyer with first-hand experience with the Boulder DA's office and the members of the investigation team, this case has frustrated me and fascinated me for 20 years. I've spoken to a slew of (non Keenan Lacy) DAs, cops, investigators, attorneys and consultants who looked at this thing objectively, i.e. not on the Ramsey payroll. Even PI's and handwriting experts who I used in my civil cases but who were consulted in the JBR case. To a man - and woman - they are dead certain that the Ramseys are responsible. No doubts. None. Zero.
ReplyDeleteThis case is Occams razor at its most brutal. We are to believe that a stranger sneaks into a multi-level house, finds his way to JBR's room, abducts her, FEEDS HER PINEAPPLE, kills her and hangs out in the kitchen to write a ransom note (2 drafts!) . . . all without being discovered. And without leaving a shred of DNA evidence in the house itself.
Please.
The Boulder DA - Lacy in particular - should be disbarred.
Just want to say that the RN part isn't nearly as crazy if you believe it could have been written while the Ramsey's were at the party. They left the house around 4:30 and didn't get home until 9:30 correct?
DeleteAgain, I think the RDI theory is most likely, but some aspects of the case are interesting and can't be dismissed
Well yeah, the concept that a kidnapper will break into a house without leaving a trace of evidence and hang out in the kitchen to draft a ransom note without knowing when the family will walk in the door is only slightly less nuts. It's still nuts.
DeleteAnyone actually think this case will be solved? I really don't think this case will ever be solved.
ReplyDeleteIf you do think this case will eventually be solved why do you think that and how will it be solved?
I have just read your blog this week from beginning to end. I am THOROUGHLY convinced JR did this. I have recently became interested in this case again. I was 19, and in college, when this happened. From the beginning, I always thought the intruder theory was absurd. Being 19 at the time, I was not particularly obsessed with this case yet. It was clear to me that one of the parents did it, and they got away with it because of money and status and potentially great lawyers - like OJ. Fast forward to my 20's-30's when I graduate with a psychology degree and am a paralegal.... who is enthralled with true crime. I watched every second of the Casey Anthony case.. among many others. I had not thought about this case until the recent media coverage brought it back up. I even saw PR around town a few times over the years - sat next to her at an Applebee's years after the murders. I remember looking at her and thinking (she was there with other women)she looked nice and had a "sad" aspect about her (I would literally never be the same if this happened to my own child). I drove by their Atlanta home many times just going about my life - oh that's where the Ramsey's live, whatever... Did not really think much about it until recently. I am now looking at it with new eyes - over the years I did not keep up with all the "new information". I figured whichever one of them did it got away with it, and that was that. Having a child of my own, now, and being older than I was (unfortunately - ha), I look at this so much differently. I am completely in agreement with your theory, and I want him brought to justice.
ReplyDeleteIf the investigation is looked at with new eyes, and presents the evidence correctly, there is a chance for a charge for murder. Never give up hope, refer to the Moxley - Kennedy case, he was found guilty 27 years after the murder. BPD just needs to hand this over to DocG!
ReplyDeleteActually, Michael Skakel has since been released. His conviction was thrown out and he is 100% innocent.
DeleteI am perplexed about what happened to the roll of duct tape, rope, etc. Does anyone know if PR and JR took (any) personal items with them when they left the house after JB's body was found, and if so, where those items checked by the police before they were allowed to take them?
ReplyDeleteVicki
If I'm not mistaken, John was out of sight for an hour when the cops came. That was enough time for him to get rid of alot of evidence, including JonBenet's original underwear.
ReplyDeleteBut, supposedly JR never actually left the house. So, assuming he never left the house, where are the missing items? Hidden in the house somewhere (and removed at a later time) or elsewhere on the exterior property, or he took them with him when he and PR left to go to a friends house after the body was found.
DeleteP.S. I'm watching the Dr. Phil show now and he is sticking up for the family....saying that they weren't involved.
First, we have no reason to believe he didn't leave the house. Some items could have been disposed of in a storm sewer for all we know. Other items, such as the tape and cord could have been used up in the staging. No need to assume there was some roll of cord or tape around. They could have been items left in the house by workmen.
DeleteI didn't realize Dr. Phil aired another Burke Ramsey segment today. I didn't think the third portion was going to be on until Monday. Here's the explanation... http://tamaratattles.com/2016/09/15/dr-phil-addresses-viewer-questions-about-burke-ramsey-interview/
ReplyDeleteMinnesota Linda
Ok, so why would certain items be missing from the home. The duct tape, JBR's underwear. And the flashlight was wiped down, even batteries, when later John AND Burke both admitted to using it that night (which would explain having their fingerprints on it...but no fingerprints were found on it).
ReplyDeleteOther items were left in the home such as the writing pad, the pens, and bowel of pineapple. Burke even admitted that it was odd that the bowl was left out on the counter as most of the time the dishes were cleaned right away, not left out like that.
Why would John leave the ransom note on the stairs if he were not finished cleaning up the "crime scene"? Why risk Patsy or Burke finding it, especially since it was on the stairs they frequently use.
Those explanations are hogwash. Dr. Phil should not have been the one to conduct this interview. John's manipulations continue!
ReplyDeleteGuess what? Dr. Phil and JR have the same attorney.... that explains why Dr. Phil did the interview.
DeleteI didn't realize Dr. Phil aired another Burke Ramsey segment today. I didn't think the third portion was going to be on until Monday. Here's the explanation... http://tamaratattles.com/2016/09/15/dr-phil-addresses-viewer-questions-about-burke-ramsey-interview/
ReplyDeleteMinnesota Linda
I don't know why these shows and websites have so much trouble getting the most basic of details correct. One of the shows earlier this week said it took 20 minutes for the police to arrive after the 911 call. The writer in the link listed above calls the BPD inept because they "issued a statement exonerating the Ramseys and apologized for contributing to their grief by considering both parents AND BURKE (despite what Dr. Phil said) as suspects." The BPD did nothing of the sort. It was foolish DA Mary Lacy who issued that apology.
DeleteIf people can't get the most basic facts straight, I really wish they'd refrain from commenting at all. I certainly don't take them, or their opinions, seriously.
@DocG- Did you notice that John is wording along with PAtsy during their first interview(I think)where she says "Keep your babies close to YOU." It was a show...That proves it...
ReplyDeleteKathy
I mean mouthing the words along with her...
ReplyDeletei totally noticed this! definitely proof that it was all an act! - AA
DeleteSo Burke finally speaks out after 20 years because of the anniversary or because John has read this blog and continues to try everything to deflect suspicion away from him? We know what you did John!!!
ReplyDeleteDr. Phil just said that both PR and JR took polygraphs (multiple tests), privately through an independent examiner who was "the best of the best who had worked for the FBI," and both passed, although 1 was inconclusive (for PR) but not a failure.
ReplyDeletePlease do a search here on "polygraph" for my take on this questionable event.
DeleteFinally I'm on the current blog site. Thank you Doc G, for clearing up this mystery. I have a few little questions that I can't put together properly. If this crime was premeditated, in that JR knew he was going to kill JB, when did the sexual assault take place? After he hit her over the head; before; or after the strangulation? It would make more sense then that this was not premeditated if it occurred before. She may have cried out, and he had to silence her. It drew blood so it would have had to have happened before the strangulation. Also any explanations for the strange round marks on her cheek and shoulder that LS thought was a stun gun. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteWe may never know in what order things happened that night, or whether the murder was premeditated -- though for me that remains a possibility. The marks on her cheek were not produced by a stun gun, that's absurd. There was NO evidence such a device was used and if one had been she'd have screamed bloody murder and awakened the whole neighborhood. The marks probably got there as she collapsed to the floor after being bludgeoned. Or else there was a struggle prior to the head blow. It's also possible she was sexually molested after the blow and the bruising was a result of what her attacker did to her at that time. Not pleasant to think about, no.
Delete"if one had been she'd have screamed bloody murder and awakened the whole neighborhood" Right? Definitely the funniest part of the "Lou Smit Show" is how he says a stun gun would just knock her out.
DeleteI don't think this was premeditated for one second. That is worse than the intruder theory in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteAny theories about where he would have taken her for the sexual assault? It would have had to have been somewhere that she wouldn't have been heard. And would she go down to the dark dirty cellar, be assaulted and NOT tell anyone? He must have thought he had nothing to lose if he planned on this being the one last time (as in premeditation)
DeleteSee my blog post titled "Premeditated?"
DeleteI don't think I agree. The garrote alone would probably meet the standard of premeditation. Premeditation doesn't mean planned for a week. However, John has this strange visit to the airport, and it does seem like the note was copied from a computer screen. For one, it looks to be double spaced after each sentence, which is something done on computers by those who learned to type on a typewriter.
DeleteI wonder with Inquisitive where in the house she was when she was bludgeoned, and how she got there, assuming she wasn't hit in the kitchen.
100% agree with you Zed. I don't think this was premeditated whatsoever. It JR was the killer and it was premeditated, there is NO WAY he lets PR make that 911 call. He could have forcibly ripped the phone from her and said "WE NEED TO FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS!" On top of that, I don't believe there was any prior molestation, so what exactly was the motive?
DeleteIf its premeditated, JR could have used paper from a pad outside of his home, a paintbrush for the garrotte outside of his house, a murder weapon from elsewhere. The more details that come out, the more this either was done by a Ramsey on accident or an intruder. Nothing else is plausible
-J
I always thought the sexual assault the night of the murder was part of the staging.
ReplyDeleteThere was prior vaginal trauma, which showed up in autopsy
DeleteThat was inconclusive
DeleteThat was inconclusive
DeleteThe supposed "stun gun" marks came from a toy. The "stun gun" theory is something that John Ramsey and his team have kept out there to deflect attention from himself.
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree, but if you think JR committed the crime of murder, which I do, and not BR then why would he have used a toy in such a manner on his daughter?
DeleteI dont think the toy marks play a part in the murder. The stun gun theory was used to claim that the "intruder" silenced her with it.
DeleteJR and BR both now admit to holding the murder weapon on the night of the crime. This is highly suspect. There's no reason to use a flashlight on the way to bed if all the others are asleep many room and floors away. Burke's room is near the stairs, while JBR's room was a bathroom, a playroom and a hall away--no danger of lights waking her. And with Patsy on the third floor, the flashlight is useless. Except to clobber someone with.
ReplyDeleteAll they do is diffuse and confuse. Nothing they do or say offers any real help.
DeleteNeither said on the Dr. Phil show that they want to still find the killer at large. They seemed set on only answering questions to help clear their names. They haven't said anything they were doing in recent years to look for the killer or help solve the crime. In fact, Burke seemed surprised that there was still interest in the murder all these years later.
They like to pretend they live in a little bubble and are oblivious to the fact that this is one of the most highly publicized crimes in the last century.
Yes. There is supposedly a killer out there still, who deeply resents John Ramsey enough to brutally murder his daughter. Yet John seems unconcerned that this person might eventually come after him.
DeletePutting the flashlight topic aside for a moment, I have a question.
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious that John fabricated the story of how the window was broken. He had to explain it because he had actually broken it that night as part of staging. Why would he do that if he could simply just open the window? He did say that the window was often left open because the basement would get hot. So why risk making noise by breaking the window?
Interesting question. Also rather amusing. John broke the window because he needed dramatic evidence pointing directly to the breakin of an intruder. An open window would have been too ambiguous. To avoid any noise he could have placed a towel against the glass before he broke it from the other side (the outer side, natch).
DeleteIt was only later, when he was desperate for some sort of explanation for why he wouldn't consider an open window unusual, that he came up with his absurd story about leaving the window open to let in cool air. That obviously made no sense at all. If the window was already broken there'd be no need to open it to let fresh air in (along with bugs, and freezing December cold). Amazingly his interrogators bought it!!!
I'll repost this because I'm worried it was buried too far up.
ReplyDeleteOk, so why would certain items be missing from the home. The duct tape, JBR's underwear. And the flashlight was wiped down, even batteries, when later John AND Burke both admitted to using it that night (which would explain having their fingerprints on it...but no fingerprints were found on it).
Other items were left in the home such as the writing pad, the pens, and bowel of pineapple. Burke even admitted that it was odd that the bowl was left out on the counter as most of the time the dishes were cleaned right away, not left out like that. So, was it just not a completely cleaned up crime scene?
Why would John leave the ransom note on the stairs if he were not finished cleaning up the "crime scene"? Why risk Patsy or Burke finding it, especially since it was on the stairs they frequently use.
Also, regarding the flashlight, if it WAS used to hit JBR on the head, why would it need to be wiped down if there were no blood as a result of the hit? Batteries and all?
In a recent article that I was reading, I noticed that the word "deviations" was used twice in the article as quoted by the Navy:
ReplyDelete"It said Kuss, flying Blue Angel Number 6, was going too fast and was not high enough when he tried what is called a 'Split S' maneuver.
" 'He transitioned from the high performance climb to the Split S too low and too fast, and by not deselecting his afterburners during the maneuver, he continued to accelerate,' the Navy report said.
" 'The net effect of these deviations was that the aircraft was simply too low and too fast to avoid impacting the ground.'
"The report said Kuss did not take any actions that could have possibly prevented the crash. He then tried to eject from the aircraft too late, it added.
" 'Although Capt Kuss was a highly trained and respected naval aviator, his deviations from standard operating procedures in executing the Split S maneuver resulted in a fatal loss of situational awareness,' said the report dated August 25 and obtained by CNN on Thursday."
Upon closer inspection, the word "deviate" or "deviations" is a commonly used word in Naval aviation when describing flight maneuvers or missions. Because John Ramsey was in the Navy and also an avid pilot, the use of that word in the ransom note makes him look all the more suspicious.
Gumshoe
Very interesting Gumshoe. I still have the same question I had yesterday. I know the "stun gun theory" and i don't believe it, however something made those marks on her cheek and shoulder that resemble a stun gun. Even if it is a toy, who in the world would find it necessary to put those marks on her skin, and with what, before during or after the sexual attack? And by the way I am not nor have ever been an intruder theorist. I believe it was JR from start to finish. I just do not know what those marks are or what they mean. Can anyone speculate here for me? Thanks.
DeleteAs I see it you are looking through the wrong end of the telescope. I sometimes find marks on my own body that I can't explain, OK? Where could that bruise have come from? I don't recall slamming into anything recently. Where did that itchy bump come from? No mosquitoes around.
DeleteThere are always going to be odd things one can find at any crime scene or in fact just in ordinary day to day life. What Lou Smit was doing was looking for anything of that sort that he could spin into evidence consistent with an intruder. He did the same thing with the basement window. He saw some odd marks on the body, that could have gotten there in any number of ways, went shopping for a stun gun that seemed to fit, and was off to the races. The name of the game is: red herring.
My best guess is that she was probably bruised during the sexual assault, when parts of her body could have been pressing against something on the floor.
have you looked at the crime scene/body? If so you would see that those "spots" were very unusual. A round circle of that odd size and shape would have been noticed by PR and not be "pageant worthy." Same spots are visible on her shoulder or back, I can't remember which now. Also autopsy report cannot figure out what could have caused them but makes note of them. I hit my shin on the end of my platform bed all of the time, then I forget about it, when I see the bruise I then remember it but it is not perfectly round and equidistant from another perfectly round one found in a second location. I do not believe it was a stun gun, so please don't put me in that box, but I am just curious as to what could have caused it, and when and how. That's all. PR would have noticed it if it were prior to the night in question, of course doubtful she would have commented on it to the media or police. "Pressing against something on the floor" - something that was standing straight up with points equidistant from each other?
DeleteI seriously doubt those marks were there before the assault, because yes they would have been noticed. But there are all sorts of things that could have produced such marks. I won't try to be specific because I have no idea what could have been lying around on the floor of JonBenet's bedroom, or the kitchen or the basement.
DeleteInquisitive - there are at least 2 pictures of her on christmas day showing her neck and there are no marks at that time. So those were created sometime after the last picture of her - sometime the night of 25th/early morning 26th. Some speculate it's from a toy train track she may have pressed on. http://i.imgur.com/6K9olBW.png
DeleteI was thinking the marks look like they could be from the prongs where train tracks connect together. They can be sharp and could be used to cause pain to get someone to do something. It doesn't seem like they could cause those marks by laying on them, because they usually lay flat against the floor when on the ground and wouldn't make marks from both prongs the equal distance apart.
DeleteDona
I think for me those unusual "spots", and granted some decomposition had already taken place making them appear darkened, are a point of consternation with me because if she were "felled" at some point and rolled around on the floor then that object whatever it was would have had to be at a certain angle to make those marks. By the looks of the house many things were thrown on the floor, toys in JB bedroom, clothes on the floor, the opposite bed, the dresser, pineapple dish left on the kitchen table, I think PR was not necessarily a good housekeeper which is why she had a housekeeper. In any event, my hammering away on the unusual marks is because I can't figure out how they got there (and of course what caused them). Was the killer intentionally pushing something into her skin, did she "roll over" on something that just happens to be shaped like a toy train track - in two areas of her body - if someone did use it on her was it part of the pre-attack - would her father have picked up a toy and pressed it into her skin, for what purpose? Or could BR have done that prior to events that took place later? I think it is important. Could BR have had a "toy" stun gun? I just don't see JR using a toy on his daughter, and I can't see what kind of toy she could have fallen or rolled over on (even her little plastic loom found on the floor didn't have tines that were this far apart). I'll move on here but it's just a very big mystery to me, and yes, no reason to think they were there prior to Dec. 25/26.
DeleteWell, how long does it take for bruises to show up? Bruises that small?
DeleteWhat if JBR and Burke were playing with the train (or another toy nearby) and got into an argument and fought near the train. He is big enough to pin her down and maybe he did so on the toy train, thus causing the marks. Maybe he became so enraged he ended up hitting her with something larger during the argument, such as his bat or the flashlight.
The point of the ransom note was to get Patsy and Burke out of the house so John could remove the body. Patsy "ruined" it by calling the cops.
ReplyDeleteThe underwear was removed as it would contain John's DNA.
John didn't have time to clean everything up. He still had to take a shower to remove any remnants of being involved in the crime.
The note didn't say for anyone to leave the house, though.
DeleteDo you mean it was a means for John to leave the house with the bag (to go to the bank)?
John could have snuck them out in his car when heading to the bank to collect the ransom.
DeleteYes, and did anyone do a follow up question with PR as to when she heard the shower running? She said she heard it and assumed John was taking a shower, but no one said "what time was that." I don't know about PR but if I'm having to get up very early for a trip out of town I keep my digital alarm clock right by my bed and I make note of when/if I hear anything unusual before I go back to sleep.
DeleteEveryone must realize too - Dr. Phil and JR are represented by the SAME attorney!
ReplyDeleteDocG, you are brilliant - I have been thinking the same thing - so all these people hate you...one enough to do this to your daughter, but you never hired security for the rest of your family (or yourself) all these years after?! I'd be scared @$%#less!!!! So calm....because you did it and know no one is after you.
Ok Here is what I think happened that night..
ReplyDeleteBurke wakes up and goes to get a snack along with Jonbenet. They are giggling as kids do and one parent wakes up. I think it was Patsy. While she is busy thinking about what to pack etc...She are playing rough...Patsy orders them to bed. They sneak down to the basement. Burke starts rough housing and makes a make shift garrote and starts choking Jonbent...When she screams he tries to silence her because they are suppose to be in bed. he grabs an object and hits her over the head. Oh know now look what he had done...He is scared and just tries to wake her. I know he is very little but she was sitting when he did it.
Now he panics and runs to get not MOM but DAD.
PAtsy has gone back to sleep. John takes over from here...He knows that she is already dead and takes Burke to bed. He tells Burke that is ok. He can fix this. Burke trusting his Dad goes back to sleep..think JB is ok and that his father can make her better. He is only 9 but almost 10. He is much stronger than we think.
Dad cleans up the mess by making the garrote and continues with the staging.
He gets Patsy up and she is beyond horrified. She takes the time to figure things out. She has lost one baby and will not lose her first born. They eventually tell Burke that she fell or that an intruder did it so Burke can have some type of "normal" childhood.
It is the only thing that makes sense with all the evidence. John is not a pervert although he kinda is for the staging part but he is a military/CEO who takes charge and gets things done. Patsy on the other hand is the peacemaker..so both do their job and they were going to get rid of the body but they were just too exhausted. So they hoped for a better outcome with the police so John would have time to get rid of Jonbenet.
Burke has never thought that he was responsible so he has nothing to hide.
Only other way is that John was abusing Jonbent and the story is the same except John does his thing after the kids go back to bed and Patsy doesnt have a clue. But we aaall know that Burke,Patsy and JB were up sometime eating pineaple. So whyu lie about it?? IF John did it they would not have known and would never have lied about it.
I know we say that John conveiced her to do a certain thing...maybe but She just lost a child and she AIN'T(country for is not) going to let anyone off the hook EXCEPT BURKE!!
If Burke did it according to your theory, then John and Patsy would have been collaborating to stage a kidnapping -- which already seems like overkill since they could have claimed it was all just an accident. However, if they'd been in this together then the 911 call would not have been made at that time, with the body still in the house. See the first two posts in this blog for details. Also my post titled "Why John".
DeleteDocG. I agree with your theory but some things are not adding up.I do indeed think John did it but WHY lie about the pineapple. I don't need to read your old posts because I already read your theory years ago. Burkes and PAtsy fingerprints were on the bowl. So why lie. If they had pineapple at 9,10 11 or even 3 am. There is No reason to lie. And John telling them to lie is crazy. He was the leader of the house but Patsy is the leader of the kitchen and the household. Other than That and the carr fellow knowing way too much about this...I agree with you. did you notice that he was mouthing along with PAtsy when she said "keep your babies safe" . This is huge because the interview was rehearsed and he was the puppet master. God took PAtsy early in life because she is still pure. John will die an old man cause even the devil doesn't want him either. OK John did it. Some ME(sorry guys) are sick and he is just one of a million...
DeleteI would like your thoughts on him on why he knew what Patsy was going to say he said it along with her in first interview. Ok how it is solved how can we get John??
I believe no one else in the house knew JR took JB out of her bed and fed her the pineapple. If PR or BR had given JB pineapple that night or seen her take a piece it would not have been a big deal. But if JR got her out of bed he would not have wanted anyone to know that.
DeleteGreat point, however if patsy or burke were the ones to kill JBR, neither of them would want to admit giving the food to her, either. Even if the parents were protecting Burke and all of them were in the kitchen, they would still want to keep as far away as they can about admitting about the pineapple. The pineapple is THE most crucial element connecting any of them to JBR's death. Just like you said, the very reason no one is claiming to remember about the pineapple is all the more reason to suspect all of them are in on it (or at least both parents). If it was John who fed it to her and didn't want to be found out, then don't you think Patsy would realize her daughter had pineapple in her system, however she (JBR's mom) didn't give her any pinepapple that night? Yet there was a bowl of it on the counter. She would move heaven and earth to understand why the bowl was there and who put it there. She would have known that JBR had to be fed pineapple from someone and she would question Burke and John.
DeleteRegarding Carr, I believe he was fed info and used as a scapegoat to deflect from the Ramseys. I bet he was also blackmailed into admitting he knew info. It is my opinion that the Ramseys wanted to clear their names due to Patsy's illness....just like Burke and John are doing now with the 20th anniversary of the murder.
The pineapple is significant ONLY because all the Ramseys denied any knowledge of it. If they said from the start that she had eaten some pineapple that evening it would not be regarded as significant evidence. Thus if they were in it together there would be no reason to lie about it.
DeleteAs for Patsy realizing something, when do you think that would have happened? She was under heavy medication for weeks after the murder and in no position to do any sleuthing. And after she came out of it she'd have been informed that John had been ruled out as writer of the note, a finding that NO ONE connected with the case ever disputed. So why should she?
And Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl are easily explained since she probably placed it in a cupboard at some point. And as we've just learned, Burke's prints were on the glass, not the bowl. JonBenet's prints were not on the bowl either, so maybe we can remove her too from the suspect list.
DeleteOkay Doc G I just scrolled further up and see that you addressed the possible scenario and the marks on the cheek and shoulder as possibly occurring from a struggle of some sort. They are oddly shaped and a measurable distance apart, and round. I can't imagine what kind of struggle would result in a "poking" accident to the skin, which is why at first I thought it could be BR. But I don't believe BR is good for the murder. As for premeditation, I do not rule it out either. The "thought" to commit the murder could have started the day before, the night of, or just before he removed her from her bed so therefore, premeditated. If so then I think the sexual assault may have happened after the blow to the head, and the blow obviously right after the pineapple was ingested. The sexual attack probably happened in the basement. Neighbor said she thought she heard a scream. I don't think she could have heard a scream from the basement, and didn't she say she thought she heard it from over at the kitchen area? Also a metal scrape of some sort. Perhaps a chair overturned as she fell. Would make sense in this scenario as JB would not have wanted to go down to the basement in the dead of night unless she was unconscious when she was carried down there. Where her bladder gave out as well.
ReplyDelete@inquisitive. It might have been a stun gun. John did have time to get rid of some of the items. He might have had one in his possession. He used it when Jonbenet screamed. He didn't want to get caught with his little girl doing God knows what...
DeleteYes, Kathy, it could have been JR's own stun gun. LS wrongfully believed that was evidence of an intruder. It doesn't rule out that JR might have had his own stun gun, which might have caused the scream heard by the neighbor. He could have disposed of it with the glove, the duct tape and cording as well as any other practice notes right across the alley way in the dumpster, where Kolar in his book thinks John was looking out the window at while police were there, or the investigator. Looking to see if the trash collectors had come yet. Or if anyone was nosing around the trash bin. Wasn't he looking out that window with binoculars as well?
DeleteThere was NO stun gun. Forget it. Lou Smit was by then shilling for the Ramseys and desperate for any red herring he could toss into the mix.
DeleteThose marks line up perfectly...I am not trying to argue with u docg...just looking at the FACTS...FACT she had two sets of marks that looked like burns...but who knows...nobody that in itself is the problem. Of course the pineapple is VERY important...obviously if they admitted feeding it to her of course it would not be but GUESS WHAT they didn't thus causing a lie. This can NOT be ignored. Who gives a flying flip (patsy words not mine) we go ate pineapple and when,,,,we should because it is very import a nt to the c a use I f the so called lies. It c as n not be dismissed as huh...I don't know...
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Delete"John could have snuck them out in his car when heading to the bank to collect the ransom."
ReplyDeleteWhich begs the question: Why would JR send John Fernie to the bank when it would have been an excellent opportunity for him to dump more evidence from the car? - D.S.
Interesting. I'm not sure Fernie was sent to the bank. I thought the money was being arranged through a banker and was going to be delivered to the house. Of course that would also have been a violation of the "kidnapper's" demands for sure, but John seemed not to care. Of course at that point he probably thought the jig was up, so why bother?
DeleteIn any case, John was needed at the house, because they were (mistakenly) expecting a call from the "kidnappers" between 8 and 10 AM. Banks don't open at 8 so there'd be no chance for John to head for the bank before the call was expected.
By the way on the Darnay Deposition video watch JR's body language when he's questioned about learning to make knots in the Navy. He is emphatic he never had any training on how to make knots. Really?! That's so absurd. But it's his body language that gives him away. He seems to already know where this questioning is leading and has a ready answer almost before Darnay can get it out. And he's emphatic. No, he doesn't know how to make knots. And importantly, nor did he even look at the autopsy pictures of his daughter with the garrot to see if he could recognize the ties. He has a ready answer for that as well - because he condescendingly states, his daughter had been killed and looking at the pictures would have been disturbing.
DeleteMy husband doesn't follow the case nor does he care who did it. He took one look at JR and said who calls their dead child just that a dead child. You would be respectful of the dead esp if it is your 6 year old cheld and refer only to her as my daughter or our daughter or Jonbenet..Just a thought
DeleteInquisitive, you have a link to the Darnay Deposition video?
Delete>>>> he's emphatic. No, he doesn't know how to make knots. And importantly, nor did he even look at the autopsy pictures of his daughter with the garrot to see if he could recognize the ties.<<<<
John Ramsey carried the body from the basement upstairs and laid it on the floor. Linda Arndt said they both kneeled down close to the body. John got a good look at his handy work. He didn't need to look at autopsy photos.
Jaxon I stumbled on it when I looked for anything I had missed a few weeks ago. It's old of course, but I just youtubed it so to speak. I think if you simply type "youtube J and PR deposition" you will be able to watch it. I watched both of them, and they are long but interesting. They would not have gotten these depositions if not for a suit brought by someone who the Ramsey's claimed might have done the crime. As I kept watching, first PR, then JR, I thought to myself this poor woman is trying her best to recall things, still seems distraught but not medicated, and although she helped with some white lies, her deposition is in sharp contrast to the ever-in-control JR who has an answer for everything, expresses arrogance, and disgust. Much like he is still acting on the Dr. Phil clips of Burke.
Delete"By the way on the Darnay Deposition video watch JR's body language when he's questioned about learning to make knots in the Navy. He is emphatic he never had any training on how to make knots. Really?!"
DeleteI would assume everyone in the navy would be required to take classes on basic seamanship, which would certainly include knots. Take a look at this seamanship manual, where five chapters are devoted to the handling of rope and knots: http://354invincible.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Marine-Society-and-Sea-Cadet-Seamanship-Manual-Part-1.pdf
There are several red flags in that deposition. John is thinking a lot harder about what to say than Patsy is. John saying he should but doesn't know much about knots. John wanting to leave for his band concert. John insisting that "frankly" Patsy didn't write the ransom note.
DeleteBack to the ransom note - the "tone" of the note in some instances are similar to PR (I do believe JR penned the note just to set the tone of my own belief) and the type of Christmas letters she wrote - complete with exclamation points used to show excitement. Some of these were published in a book written by a psychologist I read a few years or a year ago. Since JR took his time putting together this note he could have very well chosen to use some phrasing Patsy may have used and I think you touched on this Doc G in "Patsy the Patsy." He INTENDED for that note to throw suspicion off himself. And what a lucky break that that's what indeed did happen, and on to her.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you see Patsy's "tone" in that note? Because I see nothing of the sort. Can you be specific?
DeleteI meant that JR SAYS he didn't look at the autopsy pictures, because he was "too disturbed" by it - he knows who tied those knots - no need to look at the pictures. Thank you everyone for logically walking your own selves through this, this is the best blog site I've participated in. We all want to get to the truth, since the perpetrator has not thus far been brought to justice.
ReplyDeleteThe CBS Special begins Sunday evening. Dollars to donuts they're going to pin this on Patsy when it's all said and done.
DeleteThe handwriting experts have ruled John out, after all. And, what an exact science handwriting analysis is...NOT.
Patsy's dead and her husband/JonBenet killer is still alive. John will use his wife even in death to establish a public perception of innocence. Some things never change.
Personally, I don't see how anyone can read this blog thoroughly, then spend a few days considering these questions, and come way feeling that John Ramsey is NOT the killer of JonBenet.
This blog is not for the cognitively impaired.
Inquisitive, thanks for the heads up on the JR deposition video. I'll see if I can track it down.
Jaxon, I just typed in google search "youtube john and patsy ramsey depositions" and all of them showed up so happy viewing! I will probably watch again some time soon as well. What you will notice after a while though is as good as Darnay is at questioning and raising issues, he does seem to be harping on Patsy as the author of the note. Sad. Will "they" ever get it right?
DeleteJust like Burke hasn't yet looked at the entire ransom note! Do you all see the connections here? The evasive behavior on ALL their parts?
ReplyDeleteWhy couldn't anyone have done a good job investigating to see if John's military training consisted of learning how to tie knots? That should be some easy information to find out.
And yes Anonymous, that's one of my main questions. Background on JR's military training. But you see when the investigation got derailed early on focusing on PR all they could do was jump on the same bandwagon, scratch their heads, and not be able to solve the case. Another thing to me either overlooked or not disclosed, were JB's medical records. She was taken to the doctor 27 times, in a year wasn't it? Doesn't the doctor-patient privilege be waived in a murder investigation? Anything he said to PR could be questioned as she is not his patient, the deceased was. Also only one writing sample from on old lawsuit of JR's? Really? In all of his adult life no other writing sample could be unearthed?
DeleteA postscript - tunnel vision has derailed many a case. This is one of my bugaboos. One has to be able to consider ALL options, and think outside the box. Often prosecutors get locked into a theory as well and then cannot sell it to a jury. I'd be willing to be if JR was ever arrested there would still be some investigators who would stick to their theory that PR murdered her daughter and would thus influence the jury so that a not guilty verdict would be reached.
DeleteThis case needs to be redone. It is clearly JR. I can do better investigating than those police did.... horrible.
DeleteHere you go: even normal people like us can take a class in tying knots "that they teach Navy Recruits in training."
He learned knot-tying in the Navy. Plus I just texted by brother who was in the Navy. He said everyone learns the knots. There's your answer. Took me 5 minutes.....
KNOT TYING»
Whether boating or camping or carrying cargo, there are times in everyday life when a proper knot is a necessity. Here, Navy Instructors teach you some of the same basic knot-tying skills that they teach Navy Recruits in training.
And John even owned a boat. Boy Scouts learn rope tying techniques as well. Any info as to whether Burke was a boy scout - uh oh. No, I won't go down that tunnel! Just a bit of levity in an otherwise very dark subject. Sorry.
DeleteThe "rope" sure does look like a shoelace to me...
DeleteI think that white rope looks like a chord of some sort - one that might be used to tie up a boat. That may very well have been lying around the basement.
DeleteI honestly do not believe Burke would be able to tie a garrote and knot around his sister's neck. The knot looks too sophisticated and too tight for someone his age and for someone his size. It looks professional, not amature. I doubt a kid would even know what a garrote was....I didn't even know before learning about it in this investigation.
DeleteIf a kid WOULD think about staging a murder and wanted to make it look like the victim was strangled, a kid would probably just tie a rope around the neck. Very amature. Kids do not know about sex crimes. But adults would.
Remember when one of the investigators speculated that the round marks on her body could have been caused by Patsy's ring as she held JB down? Preposterous.
ReplyDeleteHA! Looks to me like he tried to stab her with part of a toy train track (since they had trains). My electric train when I was a kid had metal things sticking out the ends to hook them together. Did he first try to electrocute her?
DeleteI'm sure some would think I'm making too much of those odd marks, but if we accept the theory that JR was the killer, I for one can't imagine a scenario where he "tortured" her first with train tracks. I could however see it if BR used his own toy on her. But then again, I'm not subscribing to the BR as killer theory. And yes, there was a leaflet of some sort in JR's house regarding the use of stun guns. One doesn't have to think "intruder" to imagine a stun gun. The two aren't interchangeable. I suppose it's possible to imagine that a mosquito bit her but doubtful.
DeleteI vaguely remember reading about John's abilities with the boat he and fleet white went out on together, and the Navy, no problems with knots I would of thought. Also something about a stun gun leaflet being found but no stung gun.
ReplyDeleteDoc G I found your reply further up regarding Patsy's tone in other letters. I believe, since I no longer have that book, it came from Andrew G. Hodges, either "A Mother Gone Bad" or "Who Will Speak for Jon Benet." He makes a comparison of past Christmas letters she wrote, before she became ill with cancer, and then after. Also with the ransom note. The use of exclamation points here and there to emphasize a point in her letters, etc. But I'm sorry, I no longer have the book, or the quotes, just a memory of that particular book - purchased in 2013 (according to the amazon records). I certainly think JR could have incorporated some of her phraseology into the note. But sorry I don't have direct and specific examples. However that book is for all to read.
ReplyDeleteExclamation points in themselves mean nothing. Everyone uses them. That's just cherry picking. As for the Xmas letters, I suspect the 1997 letter was written by John, not Patsy, including the "and hence" bit, which, as we know, he used in a (documented) interview. He also used the phrase "as a family" both in that message and another interview. Of course Hodges never bothered to check -- he just assumed. Of course "use your good southern common sense" may have been something Patsy said when teasing John -- but why on earth would she have wanted to include that in a document intended to point away from her?
DeleteOnce John was ruled out that opened the door to all sorts of nonsense and Hodges book was only one of many examples.
Ahh, okay. That makes more sense, John writing the 1997 letter. So is there a handwriting sample of that note or was it done in Courier font, ha. Because if there was a sample.....An interesting study should be done on why everyone assumed the mother did this. Are we all still believing everything Sigmund Freud said?
DeleteI think the Xmas message would probably have been computer-printed, but I don't know, I've never laid eyes on the original. All I know is that it was supposed to have been written by both John and Patsy. But I do know that John used the term "and hence" in at least one other context and I don't know of anywhere that Patsy ever used it. And also it just doesn't strike me as her style -- too formal. Also as I said, John has used the phrase "as a family" in another context as well, so I suspect a good part of this message was composed by him, if not the whole thing. We really don't know and getting the truth out of John at this point is probably impossible.
DeleteI do remember Hodges theory though - that Patsy caught John molesting Jon Benet. That she already had the flashlight in her hand as she noted he was not in bed and came downstairs to investigate, using the flashlight so as not to turn on lights and wake anyone else up. She may have heard something not right coming from Jon Benet's room, gone in there, seen something horrible, and got very upset, swinging the flashlight around. Hodges said JB could have run over to hug her dad or otherwise got in the way and that is how she got hit, and not JR. That made them both, culpable - JR and PR and so both covered up the crime.
ReplyDeleteWell, some detectives have called it the $118,000 question so I guess it can't be THAT unimportant.
ReplyDeleteWho is Lou Smit?
JOHN RAMSEY: And I know, if she goes to sleep, she
12 is -- that's it for the night.
13 LOU SMIT: Next question is,
14 is could someone have gotten her up and
15 fed her pineapple? I mean that is a
16 logical question, and that's the question
17 we have to answer.
18 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't
19 imagine that somebody could have gotten
20 her up, fed her pineapple, and she
21 wouldn't have screamed bloody murder.
22 LOU SMIT: Why?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: What if it was a
24 stranger.
25 LOU SMIT: Well, it was.
0519
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Had to be.
JOHN RAMSEY: (referring to the question if JBR went downstairs herself to get pineapple in the night):It was not easy, it was
16 like a freezer door, big walk-in freezer door,
17 it wasn't that easy to pop open.
JOHN RAMSEY:
said I know we
21 didn't feed her pineapple. I know I
22 didn't feed her pineapple, I know Patsy
23 didn't feed her pineapple, because she
24 said she didn't.
NEITHER state anything about Burke giving JBR pineapple and apparently he was never asked at that time.
Then John goes on to talk about how a Santa Clause they knew would be the only person who could go into JBR's room and ask her to come downstairs and feed her pineapple without her screaming What the heck! How is this even a though in his mind....that a man they know who dresses up like Santa Clause could come into her room and lure her out? Why would he be in the house so late and without the knowledge of John and Patsy? That is a VERY bizarre thing to bring up and he goes and on and on about it...the relationship between Santa and JBR.
Doc, you stated the same thing John stated. If they gave her pinepapple at night, why would they lie about it? The digestion of the pineapple, the blow to the head, the bleeding, all add up to time of death. It also places someone at the scene of the crime.
Some state she could have been fed pineapple before the White's dinner. Given that the pineapple was in a bowl and a glass with a teabag was next to it with Burke's fingerprints, leads me to believe Burke was the one who got out the pineapple and made the tea in the glass. It seems like something a boy would do...put a teabag in a glass with milk. Adults know to not put a teabag in a glass, unless I supposed it was sweet tea. Even though John stated Patsy really loves sweet tea, her fingerprints were NOT on the glass. Patsy probably put the bowl away after it was washed and Burke got it out and used the bowl and glass. JBR could have snatched some pineapple from the bowel before the dinner, but given that the pineapple was not fully digested leads me to believe she might have eaten it that night.
What if JBR snatched the pineapple from the bowel, that leads to Burke and JBR getting into a fight, and he hits her on the head during the fight. The pineapple still digests because she is not dead, but it doesn't digest fully because her vitals are not working at 100%. It would explain why the pineapple was described as "eaten hastily" and "still having the sharp edges". It wasn't digested properly because her body had to attend to the severe injury on her head.
Exactly...Sorry but Burke and Jbr had a snack tog r the that night..if we look at NOTHING ELSE. Pineapple doesn'T lie, they both had some and the SD tory goes on. Did you not get the feeling that Burke during the Dr Phil interview was almost laughing about the whole thing. He knows wh a terrible happened and there is not one doubt in my mind about that...
DeleteI can see that we are not all 100% sure what happened. I can see a scenario though where Patsy took that bowl of pineapple out earlier and put it on the counter. But she won't even admit she took it out, right? Or did they not ask? Anyway you don't have to touch the bowl to grab a piece of pineapple from it - my question is could JB have been able to reach the bowl on the counter on her own? Perhaps when JR brought her downstairs he helped her take a piece - without touching the bowl, or he fed it to her without touching the bowl. Burke would have been asleep, and it's irrelevant whether Burke had the pineapple or not. I originally thought perhaps JB and BR got into a fight of some sort because she came downstairs while he was staying up late putting together his toy, and you know how pesky little sisters can be. But the force of the impact of the blow to the head, to me, rules out Burke.
DeleteYeah but we don't know if it was blow from anyone swinging anything. My nephew is 9 and hits Homers all the time. He is not much bigger than Burke...Adreneline might have played a factor. Excitement would mot have happened that way. Unless he is retardedthrilled playing too rough...and Burke says he j u st laid there while people are walking in and out of his room. Come on now. ..who does that. Maybe someone deaf and blind. Oh that's right he has a mental problem.it just wouldon't not happen. All kids are brave and curious. Hide in bed is a sign of weakness and we'll hiding from whatever is downstairs.
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DeleteI wonder if they have done some simulations to determine if a child Burke's height and weight at nine years old, could cause the damage that occurred to JBR's head.
DeleteI think it could be possible but I'm no expert. I in turn think that a blow to a female six year old's head by an item such as a baseball bat or flash light would kill her on impact. Especially a man as strong as John. That is why there are theories JBR fell in the tub while her mom was washing her.
Also, wiping the batteries down as well as wiping down the flashlight...would, to me, point to the fact that perhaps Burke put the batteries in the flashlight and they wanted to get rid of ALL traces of the battery being connected to him. First, John wasn't even sure the flashlight was his, now Burke and John both fess up to using the flashlight that night to walk back upstairs. Which is really bizarre.
Does anyone notice that Burke is NEVER described as being present with JBR at any time, but his parents are described as being around him? Patsy in his room looking for JBR. John walking back upstairs with Burke with a flashlight that night.
One more time: if Burke had struck her on the head, the parents would have called 911 as soon as they found her. There was NO blood. She would still have been breathing and her heart would have been beating. No reason to come up with some insane plan to stage both a kidnapping and a sexual assault.
DeleteMoreover, if one of the Ramseys had discovered this he or she would certainly have informed the other and both would have to be staging together as a team.
But if that were the case, as I've repeated so many times, they would not have called 911 the next morning.
Also we have to consider the vaginal penetration, and the garotte strangulation, where does that fit?
With apologies to James Kolar, BDI makes no sense, period.
Burke might have hit her and when she passed out, thought she was faking it or thought she would wake up. He might have been scared and was afraid to say anything to anyone. Then, when he did tell someone or someone found them, the parents thought she was dead already and helped stage the "kidnapping". It would explain the swelling before suffocation.
DeleteIn response to an earlier post today about the knots on the garrote, I just finished watching JR and PR video depositions for the law suit filed by Chris Wolf (one of the murder suspects). JR was asked about learning how to tie knots in the Navy, to which he said NO he was not taught that. He was then asked if he would need to tie special knots for his sail boat, and he said NO. So, if in fact he was taught to tie special knots like that in the Navy, surely it could be verified, right? And if so, why would he lie about it? Maybe he was so smart he got to skip that class.
ReplyDeleteJohn has told bold face lies many times and gotten away with it. The decision to rule him out has become a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
DeleteEveryone learns those knots in the Navy - he is lying. He has no problem lying under oath. I watched those depositions. JR is arrogant and manipulative - I can tell that just from watching.
DeleteAlso, reading this statement, I found it interesting:
ReplyDeleteST Page 322
"Returning to more serious subjects, Ramsey stumbled when Lou Smit questioned him about the pineapple. He insisted that he didn't remember JonBenet eating it at the Whites' Christmas party and knew she didn't eat it at home before going to sleep. In retrospect, he thought it "strange" that Priscilla White fixed her a plate of cracked crab. He would "guarantee" JonBenet did not eat the pineapple at home, so it had to be before they went to the Whites' or while they were there. "I don't buy that an intruder fed her pineapple," he declared, adding that he recognized neither the bowl containing the fruit nor the spoon that were on the table.
The very next day he retracted that firm statement, saying his lawyer chastised him for making it. Neither he nor Patsy fed her pineapple, he said, but then he asked, "What if she knew the intruder?" After thinking about it, he said, "It hit me like a ton of bricks." JonBenet "adored" Santa Bill McReynolds, and if he had come into her room, she would have gotten out of bed and gone downstairs with him without a problem. "She may have had a secretly prearranged meeting," he said. "Maybe he fed her pineapple." The detectives stopped the tape and watched that section repeatedly. Only the day before, Ramsey had said such a thing was impossible. Now he laid it on Santa Bill."
Why would John retract so much and why would his lawyer intervene with what he said? Why is what he said so noteworthy? Because John said "I don't buy that an intruder fed her pineapple," he declared, adding that he recognized neither the bowl containing the fruit nor the spoon that were on the table. This leaves very incriminating evidence open for Burke and Patsy, who BOTH had fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple, and Burke having fingerprints on the glass of tea.
All of a sudden, a man dressed up as a Santa luring his daughter down to eat some pineapple seems a MUCH more likely scenario. Highly likely, according to John. Since John states "neither he nor Patsy fed JBR pineapple" who does that leave? Burke. But to deflect from Burke, John goes on about the possibility of a man dressed up as Santa (the "intruder") luring her downstairs. Once again, we are presented with a COMPLETE deflection for Burke's culpability.
That exactly what I'm saying...fruit does not lie but the Ramsey's do.
DeleteAnd the thought that Burke was TOO YOUNG to have a sexual curious mind is well just ridiculous. Boys start flirting as soon as they can see. ALMOST 10 is when my first boyfriends started calling me and wanted to hand hands and kiss. So there you go.
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Deletein those depositions, questioning of JR, did you notice how when Darnay asked him was Patsy under any unusual stress during the holidays or if she had had more to drink lately he actually hesitates, as if he's thinking that one over! He was maybe making Patsy look suspicious. Really despicable. Just the fact that JR is trying to help come up with suspects should be suspect. He hires his own investigative team, doesn't talk to the police, and then tries to help them solve the case by offering up suspects among their close friends. He even implicated Fleet White as I recall. What a guy.
DeleteI did notice that a couple of times, and he did start to defend her more quickly later on (probably after a break when his attorney or wife told him to straighten up). He did seem ready to implicate others, that's for sure.
DeleteI just finished watching JR and PR video depositions for the law suit filed by Chris Wolf (one of the murder suspects)(I believe the depositions were taken in 2001). Some things stand out (see post above about the knots), plus:
ReplyDelete1.When JR was asked if he could remember anyone he knows using any of the phrases written in the RN, he said YES "fat cat" -- he had heard Pricilla White use that phrase. I guess they aren't friends anymore!
2. JR specifically referred to the two words misspelled in the RN (possession and business), and said that Patsy was very well educated and would not have misspelled those words.
3. PR was asked about the security system at their home in Michigan and why the security system wasn't on when John found someone stealing some items and was attacked (happened in 2001 I believe). The attorney was leading into why after what happened to JBR, they would not be using the "highly sophisticated" security system.
4. PR was asked if JBR washed her hands or showered before going to bed on the night of her death, to which Patsy answered "I don't recall." REALLY?
5. Patsy was asked what her normal routine was (during the week), and she provided very vague answers. The attorney was focused on whether or not she dressed first before going downstairs (usually was her answer). Then he asked about a black robe with roses on it and asked if she sometimes wore that downstairs before getting dressed. She couldn't recall if she had black robe with roses on it (after all she has had many robes). The attorney said her maid said she had one. She then said she remembers a white robe with roses on it.
6. Both were asked who's idea it was to call 911. PR said they both decided to call 911. JR said it was his idea -- note his deposition was the following day and he did sit in on PR's deposition.
You can view on You-Tube (there are 7 videos to watch)
Yes, those deposition videos are fascinating aren't they Anonymous? I just thought of something - misspelling the words "possession" and "business." If he were using a word processor to first type the letter, then trace over the words to disguise his handwriting, he may have gotten a "spelling alert" on those two words, but decided to leave it in in an attempt to make the note look like it was written by a spelling dunce. Still, it seems as if he had all of the time in the world that night, doesn't it?
DeleteFor more clarification on my above post regarding the depositions: #3 Patsy said the incident happened during the day (i.e. a reason why the security system wasn't on). #4 was in relation the suspected "heart" drawn on JBR's hand found in the autopsy (i.e. could it have been there when she went to bed).
DeleteThe heart Anonymous - that is peculiar. I don't think JR and PR got together on theorizing on the heart on the hand. JR offered that the White's little girl drew things like that and may have drawn it on JB's hand. Then PR said somewhere else that to get JB "pageant ready" she often had to scrub off things like that with nail polish remover. However I don't think either parent knew that heart was on her hand and possibly seized on it being an issue with the investigators as they saw an opportunity to make it look like an intruder drew it on her hand. To me it doesn't even look like a heart. Does it to you?
DeleteI'm just not convinced that PR wasn't involved in the coverup. The Doc's theory makes sense, but I'm just inclined to think that PR at some point found out what actually happened and stood by her man (it wouldn't be the first time in history). She had a whopping diamond ring on her hand during the deposition that I had not seen before (I'm guessing 3-5 carats). PR's testimony seemed more "rehearsed" where John seemed to flat out lie (which most CEO's do VERY WELL...I have first hand experience with that -- I reported directly to a CEO for many years).
DeleteTo Inquisitive: I agree with you. It doesn't all look like a heart to me. Actually when I first saw it I thought it was an injury, but apparently it was determined to be ink during the autopsy. I don't think it's that important, but what is important is that PR couldn't remember if JBR washed her hands or showered before going to bed since Patsy and John both say Patsy changed her clothes and tucked her in --- so now in hindsight after me just saying that, maybe that does make it (the heart) important since Patsy "can't remember" (and you know PR knows if JBR washed her hands or showered before bed), but why would she lie? Is she covering for JR?
DeleteWhatever the little white lies P told as they found out more and more evidence that the police/investigators had, they would have conferred and come up with some united front story. Those depositions took place in 2001, and by then they had written their book. They were questioned about specific passages in the book. I found one thing interesting - the synopsis by Douglas, the FBI profiler. Douglas keeps referring to the killer as "he." John was made to read some of those passages.
DeleteKathy, I don't think Burke had anything to do with it. For one if he did he wouldn't have gone on Dr. Phil and opened himself up to scrutiny. I do think he heard something suspicious that morning though, but we'll never know.
ReplyDeleteI agree but he is not the innocent child that he is made out to beat by the Ramsey's
DeleteI agree but he is not the innocent child that he is made out to beat by the Ramsey's
DeleteBurke being on Dr. Phil does not mean he is innocent. I loved when Dr. Phil boasted that Burke was going to be asked questions by him "without the presence of a lawyer". Lol. The Ramseys and Dr. Phil share a lawyer. The lawyer could have already supplied the questions to ask and Burke could have been coached on his responses. Who cares if the lawyer is not in the room at the time the questions are asked? So ridiculous. And Dr. Phil did NOT fully disclose that he and the Ramseys share a lawyer.
DeleteAnonymous, Dr. Phil is a Showman. It looked to me (the two episodes I watched) that there was some editing out. Also when Dr. Phil had the Anthony's on he didn't get to the bottom of anything. I'm afraid this CBS series next week will do the same thing, dance around the PR did it theory. And Kolar will be on that show. He thinks BR did it you know. And maybe he did, who knows. But show me the evidence. The one reason I'm going to be watching is that they have recreated the Ramsey house in a warehouse. I find that interesting. And speaking of that house, which was very big - a mansion - I don't think JB would have come downstairs, in the dark, at night, alone - not to see what Burke was up to, not to eat pineapple, not for anything. I believe she was brought down there.
DeleteIn regard to the flashlight batteries not having prints on them, it could be that they were inserted into the flashlight from the factory that way - but thinking now about it flashlights don't usually come with batteries, or they do but they are outside the flashlight in the packaging. So if there were already batteries in the flashlight from previous use, then it's possible that JR had to remove the batteries and put fresh ones in to be able to poke around in the night with all he had to do that night. It's a pity that the house wasn't immediately sealed so that the police could look in wastebaskets and dust for prints immediately. Instead they left Linda Arnt (sp?) alone in the house to contend with everything going on all around her.
ReplyDeleteYeah it would have changedeverything. Another thing about Jr is really. If you found your child in the basementwould you not try to revive her. I know she was cold and all but think about. You are grief SD tricken...you would try anything to save your child.Right??
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DeleteKathy, please stop posting multiple times. Give your posts some time and they should become visible.
DeleteI thought it was telling when John Mark Carr was arrested, confessed, they even leaked it was his dna on her body, JR stayed put wherever he was - Atlanta? If it was an outsider, an intruder, and they just found out who killed your child wouldn't you get the next plane out to Boulder and want to know everything you could? Yet....he was amazingly silent. Stayed right where he was.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever seen them actively campaigning in any way to catch the killer?
ReplyDeleteHOLY COW. I've only been away from this blog one day and I am amazed at how many new posts there are. It's exciting to see such a revived interest in this case. I'll be back after I catch up . . .
ReplyDeleteJohn was cautious about Carr's guilt b/c he already knows who the killer is.
ReplyDeleteJust read an old article from The Daily Beast 10/12/08 written b Lucinda Franks. It said, among other things, "as a public service and a personal crusade Ramsey now spends much of his time promoting state laws that mandate the lifting of a DNA sample from anyone accused of a felony, which would substantially expand the National DNA registry. His website is DNAFINGERPRINTLAW.COM I'll see if it's still up and running. I wouldn't think he would care since he's been "exonerated." As to lawyering up immediately after the crime he says "I got a call from someone in the law enforcement system on the second day. They told me I better do it, because the police were already considering me the prime suspect." This is interesting in more than one way. HE was considered the prime suspect, not her. Or so he says. And "someone in the law enforcement system?" why would someone in law enforcement system be trying to protect a possible suspect? I think this is a lie.
ReplyDeleteOne thing is plain and simple - someone in the family did it. I believe fully it was JR. PR is crying on TV and even when she was probably highly sedated. He just sits there. Calmly. He had wealth and prestige. If someone REALLY broke in their house and did this - if someone hated him THAT much to do this - anyone with a family would be scared out of their mind that the people/person would return for the rest of them. Anyone with that amount of money would have hired extra security - a bodyguard. Something. He did nothing of the sort and is as calm as can be - because he knows no one is after him or his family because HE did it.
ReplyDeleteI have always thought that Burke did it, but it doesn't adequately explain why the parents would cover it up. Nor does it explain why the cover up was so brutal.
ReplyDeleteThe explanation is simple. John Ramsey had been molesting her. Burke accidentally killed Jonbenet in a fit of rage over a toy or something. The parents were in their bedroom, probably heard them fighting. Burke probably never realized he even did it. Patsy comes down later and finds Jonbenet appearing dead, and Burke is playing with a toy in a different room. She wants to call police. But this is a problem for John as an autopsy will take place and his DNA is on Jonbenet in unexplainable places.
So he tells Patsy he doesn't want to take the chance of Burke being taken away. After all, he had lost a daughter a few years previous. Patsy had had cancer, doesn't know how many years she has left, and agrees. He proposes the intruder theory which takes blame off Burke, tells Patsy to write a ransom letter, and then fakes the crime scene. This gives him the opportunity to clean up the body and make it appear she was killed by a psychopathic pedophile.
If John did everything alone with the intent of getting rid of the body, the best way to do that would be to do everything quickly, including disposing the body and get it all done BEFORE Patsy wakes up. If you are spending hours staging and writing you run a huge risk of Patsy or Burke coming down and finding you. Yes you run the risk of someone seeing you driving around, but its late Christmas night, and I think that risk is smaller than someone in your family finding out what you are doing for 3-4 hours. If John implements a speed based plan, Patsy finds a short ransom note and she finds it in her pajamas.
ReplyDeleteIf they are working together, you have all night to implement the plan, the ransom note is long, everything is cleaned up and staged and Patsy meets the police at the door in the cloths from the previous night.
Tony