tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post6786084196474830599..comments2024-02-23T18:09:21.379-05:00Comments on Solving the JonBenet Ramsey Case: Onward and Upward (or sideways?)DocGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comBlogger185125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-64645331037065727392017-08-04T23:26:53.962-04:002017-08-04T23:26:53.962-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.CChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982213709500570429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-86586634108371458052017-07-31T05:45:19.058-04:002017-07-31T05:45:19.058-04:00I read Dr. Wecht's book years ago and remember...I read Dr. Wecht's book years ago and remembered him saying something about her being shaken, so I looked it up and then reproduced the relevant text from pages 99-100. That was the extent of my research! Cyril Wecht is a forensic pathologist with over 50 years of experience, so I was deferring to his conclusions on the matter. To be honest, I've never delved that closely into JBR's autopsy report before now. Reading that kind of material can make me squeamish.<br /><br />(It's interesting to note that Dr. Wecht and Doc agree that JDI and that he was the one sexually abusing her. I believe they've even corresponded about the case.)<br /><br />As for my opinion, it appears I didn’t have all the information I needed. I’d never heard of coup contrecoup injuries before, but a quick Google search showed that JBR’s temporal lobe bruising could very well be explained by the head strike. While bruising to the temporal lobes is a classic indicator of shaking, such bruising can also be the result of "vehicle crashes, falls, and firearms." (Source: http://www.brainandspinalcord.org)<br /><br />The autopsy report notes that the bruising to the right temporal lobe is worse than the left, and this probably means that CC is right again: these are coup contrecoup injuries.Canucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-75352999675547035392017-07-30T19:43:39.782-04:002017-07-30T19:43:39.782-04:00Inq believes "I post, therefore I am" CC...Inq believes "I post, therefore I am" CC. Her dear shakedown does not appreciate her and she has no where to go that will put up with her mistakes and misquotes. Can you imagine Topix and Webbsleuths putting up with her???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-20857002721483173202017-07-30T17:55:59.934-04:002017-07-30T17:55:59.934-04:00Sounds like another goodbye, Inq, though of course...Sounds like another goodbye, Inq, though of course you won't actually do that, will you? This must make at least the 5th or 6th time in as many months that you've promised to go...almost as many times as you've changed theories but, sadly, not nearly as often as you've posted misinformation.CChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982213709500570429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-27844584853372918872017-07-30T17:52:12.440-04:002017-07-30T17:52:12.440-04:00Very perceptive, Suzs. Thanks. I deeply dislike ...Very perceptive, Suzs. Thanks. I deeply dislike the trivialization of what was once a site peopled by intelligent, thoughtful contributors<br />CChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982213709500570429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-4976516282056060212017-07-30T12:34:52.921-04:002017-07-30T12:34:52.921-04:00You just quoted Meyer's description of the sku...You just quoted Meyer's description of the skull fracture from his autopsy report. He makes no mention of the trauma being frontal, only that the fracture extended 7.5" from the frontal lobe to the occipital.<br /><br />A few lines later he details the bruising to the right temporal lobe, and bruising to the tip of the left temporal lobe - classic coup contrecoup injuries.CChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982213709500570429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-14237056503684826722017-07-30T12:13:43.329-04:002017-07-30T12:13:43.329-04:00the contusion extended from the right frontal area...the contusion extended from the right frontal area, posteriorly along the lateral aspect of the parietal region and into the occipital area. Frontal trauma rarely leads to countercoup occipital lobe injuries because the occipital skull is relatively flat and smooth. <br /><br />But you did the research Canuck, what do you think the bruising indicates?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03980400715237199782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-14957912550453663772017-07-30T11:39:50.476-04:002017-07-30T11:39:50.476-04:00The bruises to the temporal lobes could be coup/co...The bruises to the temporal lobes could be coup/contrecoup injuries from the blow that fractured JBR's skull, which was struck right of midline and would have caused the brain itself to strike the skull, bruising it.CChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982213709500570429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-54531397673993398982017-07-30T10:37:56.833-04:002017-07-30T10:37:56.833-04:00Very thorough Canuck! So then that does present s...Very thorough Canuck! So then that does present some interesting possibilities, doesn't it - that she was either found unconscious and unresponsive and an attempt was made to get her to come to, and may contribute to the 45 minute between blow and strangulation. Also that the blow was accidental. Why intentionally hit your child over the head, then try to shake her awake. Anyway, thanks for your research Canuck.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03980400715237199782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-84063406839774018382017-07-30T00:21:20.466-04:002017-07-30T00:21:20.466-04:00Thanks for weighing in, Mike G.
1.) I was refere...Thanks for weighing in, Mike G. <br /><br />1.) I was referencing Dr. Cyril Wecht from his book, "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?" He certainly talks about "subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage," but he also references contusions on the tips of the temporal lobes of JonBenet's brain. (See Autopsy Report, Page 1: Final Diagnosis, II, E.) <br /><br />From pages 99-100 of Wecht's book:<br /><br />Page 1 of the autopsy report revealed, "that the head injuries included a contusion to the scalp, subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhages, and small contusions on the tips of the temporal lobes of the brain.<br /><br />"The scalp contusion -- a bruise -- obviously was associated with the skull fracture, surely caused by the hard blow that broke the bone beneath it. The subdural hemorrhage referred to blood from the injury to the brain that pooled under the dura membrane that lies between the skull and the brain. The subarachnoid hemorrhage was blood that collected under the arachnoid membrane. Those kinds of hemorrhages were almost always caused by trauma.<br /><br />"The third reference...bruises to the temporal lobes of the brain -- the portions that lie behind the temples on the sides of the head...often resulted from shaking someone and causing the brain to shift inside the skull, striking the bone on the sides. The [autopsy] report offered no reference to injuries on the outside of the head in those locations, so the internal bruises probably were not the result of blows."<br /><br />It appears she was indeed shaken.<br /><br />2.) I agree with you on the sounds heard after the 911 call. They're up for debate and I doubt any judge would ever allow that part of the recording to be used in a trial. Canucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-36636300845327388592017-07-29T23:19:45.700-04:002017-07-29T23:19:45.700-04:00"As you already know Kolar draws a straight l..."As you already know Kolar draws a straight line from the sexual behavior syndrome of BR to JB's death."<br /><br />Two points must first exist before a straight line can be drawn between them. JB's death is only one. <br /><br />Mike G<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-25654041942214003012017-07-29T23:07:08.089-04:002017-07-29T23:07:08.089-04:001) "...JBR's autopsy showed bruising on t...1) "...JBR's autopsy showed bruising on the sides of her brain...was evidence that she was shaken rather violently at some point before she died." ---Canuck<br /><br />Quite the contrary. The autopsy reported "subarachnoid and subdural hemmorhage".<br /><br />see http://www.healthline.com/health/subarachnoid-hemorrhage#overview1 <br /><br />"A serious head injury, such as one that occurs in a car crash or when an older person falls and hits their head, can also lead to an SAH."<br /><br />There was "evidence" of blunt trauma, none whatsoever of "shaking". <br /><br />A desire to have this crime be the result of an "accident" leads to such tenuously supported assertions as to be judged false beyond a reasonable doubt. <br /><br />2) "If it was all an act, and she believed the 911 call had ended, why continue the act by hysterically sobbing, "Help me Jesus" over and over again?"<br /><br />The sounds heard after the 911 call is a rorchach test both sides can use to obfuscate. If they are ever permitted to be used as evidence in this case, the judge who permits them should be disbarred, forced to resign, and immediately replaced...in my opinion.<br /><br />Mike G<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-9877181693826325142017-07-29T22:20:32.092-04:002017-07-29T22:20:32.092-04:00Yes, in this case they don't have a complete b...Yes, in this case they don't have a complete body, nor murder weapon. The grand jury was last week and just a matter of hours ( it seemed) a he's arrested. Two counts, second degree homicide and child abuse. So lesser charges it seems than the Ramseys got. And surprised to learn Dylan's skull was found in Nov 2015. That certainly was kept quiet.Diamond Lilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-61779543475637870462017-07-29T14:58:23.343-04:002017-07-29T14:58:23.343-04:00No, not necessarily. If the fiber evidence is disc...No, not necessarily. If the fiber evidence is discarded as useless, the note is attributed to JR and yet the grand jury indicted her as accessory after the fact, then one might assume JR said something which she believed or which motivated her to deny her family’s involvement in the crime to her dying day. (She died in 2006 and the charges of the grand jury expired at the end of 2004.) What was said, IDK. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-45797221641289348742017-07-29T08:17:28.480-04:002017-07-29T08:17:28.480-04:00Of course, Inq. Doc's got a great blog here an...Of course, Inq. Doc's got a great blog here and I hope it continues for a long time. Every garden needs to be weeded on occasion. :) It's good for the soul.<br /><br />EGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-60453385932060487772017-07-29T08:14:37.415-04:002017-07-29T08:14:37.415-04:00There's only one person hurling personal insul...There's only one person hurling personal insults here, Doc. The rest of us are just responding in kind.<br /><br />I know the Bible says to turn the other cheek, but sometimes that's hard to do in the face of such maliciousness.<br /><br />EGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-1432536741038622212017-07-29T07:20:21.021-04:002017-07-29T07:20:21.021-04:00Once again, I’m a bit late to the current discussi...Once again, I’m a bit late to the current discussion, but here are a few thoughts.<br /><br />You’re absolutely correct about the difference between the garrotte wounds and the flimsy wrist bindings, Ms. D. The garrotting appears to be intentional and brutal. But you'll have to forgive people like me and Inquisitive if we continue to hash this out occasionally. I’m not a BDI — there were simply aspects of the theory I hoped to discuss. The level of vitriol people are starting to express over others disagreeing with them on a 20-year-old case that none of us has personal ties to is over the top. I know Doc created this blog to present his conclusions, but doesn’t this blog also exist so people can discuss?<br /><br />For myself, I was interested in hearing what others thought about some of the items presented in "The Case Of" because some very experienced and knowledgable people are 100% in the BDI camp. Doc, you can call them “self-described experts” all you want, but people like Henry Lee and Werner Spitz are the very definition of experts in their fields. I find it fascinating that so many experts came to such divergent conclusions. For example:<br /><br />Steve Thomas: PDI <br />John Douglas and Lou Smit: IDI<br />Dr. Cyril Wecht and DocG: JDI<br />Dr. Werner Spitz, Dr. Henry Lee, and Jim Clemente: BDI.<br /><br />As for making sure the child was dead, Dr. Wecht writes in his book, "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" that JBR's autopsy showed bruising on the sides of her brain, which was evidence that she was shaken rather violently at some point before she died. In Wecht's theory, JR was playing a sex game with her that went too far and when she lost consciousness, he shook her to see if he could rouse her. If BDI and his parents covered it up, that shaking could very well have been someone's frantic attempt to wake her up.<br /><br />The thing I disliked most about "The Case Of" was the investigators' dismissal of the sexual abuse. Dr. Lee asserting that there was "really no sexual assault here" bothered me. Even if Burke did hit JBR, that doesn't mean she wasn't a victim of sexual abuse.<br /><br />And just for the record, Inquisitive, when I said PR was hysterical, I was referring to the kitchen conversation after the 911 call, when she thought she’d hung up. If it was all an act, and she believed the 911 call had ended, why continue the act by hysterically sobbing, "Help me Jesus" over and over again? I thought that interpretation of her words actually worked against their theory that she was acting.Canucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-39449434600972728582017-07-29T06:18:13.954-04:002017-07-29T06:18:13.954-04:00ETA: the Ramseys never again slept in their Boulde...ETA: the Ramseys never again slept in their Boulder home after JB's death....I'm not sure exactly where Burke's bedroom was in proximity to John and Patsy's after they left Boulder.....but you get my point! :P Ms Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15732858990595163048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-16090172881094518092017-07-29T06:15:35.972-04:002017-07-29T06:15:35.972-04:00"For all we know he could have blamed BR.&quo..."For all we know he could have blamed BR."<br /><br />Are you suggesting that JR told Patsy that Burke did it, and Patsy never once brought the subject up with Burke.....she just took everything John said regarding Burke's shenanigans at face value? Every night, she managed to peacefully sleep only one floor above the person she believed brutality murdered her daughter? And Burke never once said otherwise? Come on now.....too many mind contorting, mental gymnastics are required to believe such a scenario. Why make it so complicated when there is a much simpler explanation staring you right in the face? Ms Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15732858990595163048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-81130701551320566282017-07-29T06:08:54.752-04:002017-07-29T06:08:54.752-04:00Oh, dang. I missed the drama? ;)
I'm sorry ...Oh, dang. I missed the drama? ;)<br /><br />I'm sorry that I just now saw your comment on the last thread, CC. Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything new on the CBS case. The only link I have to check is the one I shared before, which Inq. shared again somewhere upstream. <br /><br />I found something else, recently, which I thought was somewhat interesting. The other day, I re-watched Dateline's "Who Killed Jonbenet." Apparently, Dateline was able to obtain documents from the BPD's investigation. From all appearances, these documents seem to come from the presentation the BPD gave to the DA's office and others in June of '98 (to outline the evidence and support the need for convening a GJ.)<br /><br />Some of these documents can be seen on the Dateline show. I paused (at the 1:25 mark) on a page entitled, "Small Intestine Contents." It appears that the word, "grapes" is listed on that page. The last two letters are covered by a photo, but it certainly looks like "grapes" to me. This makes me wonder if what Woodward reported in her book might be true--that other fruits were also found in JBR's small intestine.<br /><br />Also, prior to the "Small Intestine Contents" page, there is page entitled, "Victimology." Listed on that page is the word, "dumbbells" (pause at the 1:15 mark.) I'm not positive what the significance might be though. Kane does question JR (in his 1998 BPD interview) about dumbbells possibly found in JBR's room.<br /><br />Here's the link, if anyone wants to see for themselves:<br />http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/who-killed-jonbenet-part-9-768463939779HKHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-46801515694949950302017-07-29T05:54:07.635-04:002017-07-29T05:54:07.635-04:00"Appearances were everything to Patsy."
..."Appearances were everything to Patsy."<br /><br />By all means, cite your sources, Inquisitive. <br />When you were JDI you had a lot more compassion for Patsy.....why is that?<br /><br />"As soon as a note was conceived any pretense of taking responsibility was thrown out the basement window so to speak."<br /><br />Well, duhhh....so why write the note at all then? <br />I'm not even sure what to make of that statement, or what it implies, sorry, Inq. <br /><br />"An accidental fall down the stairs would not be consistent with the head wound, think that one out."<br /><br />Tell me: where is the "consistency" with sexually defiling your daughter's corpse when you're actually staging a kidnapping? <br />Where is the consistency in having this pedophile intruder demand a ransom when there was never going to be a possibility the phantom intruder could make the call? <br />Where is the consistency in staging a sex crime, yet not ONCE indicating this was actually the work of a pedophile in the note, which was brutally explicit in every, other, aspect?<br />I mentioned a "fall down the stairs" purely as an example....if John and Patsy were worried that such a scenario wouldn't match up with the head wound (though I'm not sure how they could they have even known this, as the injury wasn't visible), they could have easily told LE that one of them had accidentally hit her, if covering for Burke was their goal.....which would have made a HELLUVA lot more sense, don't you think? IF they're going to risk the DEATH PENALTY in order to protect their son, why on earth then wouldn't one of them have just said "Yep. O.K. It was my fault...it was an accident, but I'm to blame", and - at the most - would have been up for an involuntary manslaughter charge? WHY decide on a phony-kidnapping-cum-pedophile intruder, when it was the single most, senseless, convoluted, unbelievable scenario they could have conjured up??? Can ANY BDIs ever answer that one? Zed sure can't, and that's why we haven't seen him since CC demanded he provide ONE, sensible answer.....the standard procedure for BDIs everywhere on the planet it would seem. Just ONCE I would like a BDI to offer some answers that make sense, rather than run away......granted, at least you've tried, Inq (possibly the only one who has bothered), but the theory still falls apart at the most fundamental level: no one has ever offered a logical explanation as to the "WHY?"Ms Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15732858990595163048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-52909159783987666922017-07-29T03:30:20.324-04:002017-07-29T03:30:20.324-04:00Doc values her opinion & contributions as he o...Doc values her opinion & contributions as he ought to. Lots of us come here just because of her & to get a law opinion & you bring nothing but confusion & wrong info. Take your own advice & "leave this site"" finally.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-54737613475075764222017-07-29T01:59:43.391-04:002017-07-29T01:59:43.391-04:00Mrs. D,
I agree that for parents to asphyxiate a ...Mrs. D, <br />I agree that for parents to asphyxiate a child instead of calling 911 is beyond the pale. Actually many who believe the BDI scenario agree with Kolar that when she was discovered she was already asphyxiated. IOW, it was done entirely by BR and the parents covered it up. <br /><br />As you already know Kolar draws a straight line from the sexual behavior syndrome of BR to JB’s death. While that is possible, it’s highly unusual for a sibling molester to kill his sister. If I understand Kolar’s thesis, there would have been some kind of co-morbidity or a mental health issue in addition to SBP. This needed to be uncovered by retrieving BR’s medical records.<br /><br />As described on this blog, the alternative is an adult did it all. One could then view that the head blow was not an accident, but intended to kill her. What the parent did not count on is that even a heavy head blow can take a long time to bring on death. Forty five minutes to two hours from head blow to death tells me the clock was ticking, and that parent may have made a decision that the only way to end her life quickly was to asphyxiate her. It was too risky if she somehow recovered and could tell what had happened to her. That huge timing described by Dr. Lucy Rorke-Adams is to my thinking the weakest link in the BR did it all theory. <br /><br />I shall stay away from the fiber evidence (fibers from Patsy’s jacket within the ligature knot and within the paint tote), but mention one thing: It’s unknown whether or what JR told Patsy if he was the perp. For all we know he could have blamed BR. For a long time I’ve maintained that the psychology of this crime needed to be addressed by those knowledgeable about incest. From everything I’ve read there are two code behaviors for incest – denial and lies not just to the public outside the home, but also to one another within the home.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-55792392191780112522017-07-29T01:36:50.257-04:002017-07-29T01:36:50.257-04:00Inq,
I know that Henry Lee and perhaps some others...Inq,<br />I know that Henry Lee and perhaps some others (Beckner, Hunter?) believed the head blow was not intended to kill and was viewed more like an accident. I also recall Beckner believed the sexual assault that night to be staging. However, I’ve not heard that they believed the pulling of the ligature cord was staging. Do you have a reference? IIRC it was thought that attaching the paintbrush to the ligature cord was staging, in order to simulate a garotte. But perhaps I’m wrong on this. I appreciate you mentioning what was regarded as staging though because it is integral to the theory of her demise. Did you notice on the CBS Case of that although there was an indentation in the fake head, it was not cracked 8” as JonBenét’s head was?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-32787560106982653082017-07-28T23:35:48.883-04:002017-07-28T23:35:48.883-04:00It just took a while to realize it, didn't it ...It just took a while to realize it, didn't it EG? I don't know if he's "allowed" as much as "encouraged" but we do wish them luck, don't we?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03980400715237199782noreply@blogger.com