tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post6791401555490966714..comments2024-02-23T18:09:21.379-05:00Comments on Solving the JonBenet Ramsey Case: Open Thread Part ThreeDocGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-56040589850745642442016-02-02T20:44:24.428-05:002016-02-02T20:44:24.428-05:00Did they ever even find a fingerprint on jb? Was t...Did they ever even find a fingerprint on jb? Was there any suspicious finger prints ? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-82380648408207596592016-02-02T20:39:52.119-05:002016-02-02T20:39:52.119-05:00One theory which I doubt happened is what if this ...One theory which I doubt happened is what if this ex girlfriend which he cheated on with his first wife did it? I thought I read somewhere I could be wrong that when he was dating patsy she showed up on his door step and she answered the door. Jr probably told patsy she was a crazy old girlfriend. What if she snuck into the house maybe to take out pasty . She seen all the pictures of john and jb happy . Maybe that enraged her? She wasn't prepared for a ransom . That is why she wrote the rn on the r amseys home paper. The purpose of the ransom note was to make john blame himself and to point fingers away from her as a suspect. Tryed to make it seem work related . She knew of johns older daughter dieing . Maybe she wanted him to blame himself. That it was because of his money his daughter is in danger . She left the body there because she wanted him to find her like that. It could explain why she went to the extent to strangle her .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-56925973231833001132016-02-02T20:28:28.562-05:002016-02-02T20:28:28.562-05:00I legit could not sleep last night.. my heart was ...I legit could not sleep last night.. my heart was hurting for this little girl. Ive allways believed the burke theory but reading these comments have made me lean towards john. But one thing that doesn't make sense is why take this extra time and strangle her if she was dead or dying . Brutley strangle her which is such a personal crime. Have the heart to look and what done you done to her. Just doesnt make any sense . Why take this extra time to make a garrote and strangle her ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-2314991812940806262015-08-18T12:53:30.808-04:002015-08-18T12:53:30.808-04:00Good catch. I hadn't noticed that. There is ot...Good catch. I hadn't noticed that. There is other evidence suggesting the assault may have taken place in her bedroom: fibers from the cord used to strangle her were found in her bed. He could have attacked her there and only later carried the body into the basement in order to hide it in the windowless room. If he'd struck her over the head initially, she would not have made a sound while he then proceeded with his sexual assault.<br />DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-23089579683695518952015-08-18T05:50:02.778-04:002015-08-18T05:50:02.778-04:00One thing to note is that in one of the reddit ama...One thing to note is that in one of the reddit ama's (I think it was Kolar's) it was stated that vaginal blood was found on the pillowcase in JonBenet's bedroom, which means some of the abuse happened there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-20496656216630992552015-08-17T22:25:23.084-04:002015-08-17T22:25:23.084-04:00We've gone over all this stuff time and time a...We've gone over all this stuff time and time again. I refuse to spend more time on such questions. If you want my opinion, do a blog search for "notepad."DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-44750642536085537632015-08-17T22:08:59.787-04:002015-08-17T22:08:59.787-04:00(Further continued) This joint participation also...(Further continued) This joint participation also explains why PR was wearing same clothes as night before. I have never believed someone as fastidious about her appearance as PR would do that willingly. <br /><br />This leaves only motive, about which we can only speculate in any scenario. I think it likeliest PR struck her, JR delivered the coup de grace via garotte.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-85196856798594889042015-08-17T22:00:31.231-04:002015-08-17T22:00:31.231-04:00(Cont.) JR comes up after staging the body to r...(Cont.) JR comes up after staging the body to review PR's note, and in his stress and panic does not consider the note pad, because PR has put it away, just as she did the sharpie and, to some extent, the flashlight, which was wiped down inside and out.<br /><br />As Doc frequently says, we must consider only facts. Surely a consideration of an absence/presence of evidence is also a fact.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-49366166214107102792015-08-17T21:33:54.150-04:002015-08-17T21:33:54.150-04:00There are three missing pieces of evidence: whate...There are three missing pieces of evidence: whatever was used to wipe down the body, the roll of duct tape, and any remaining cord. There is one piece of evidence that SHOULD be missing: the note pad. <br /><br />Doc has suggested the first three items were cut up and flushed, which begs the question - why was not the note pad as well? <br /><br />Imagine how much more persuasive the IDI theory would be had the note pad disappeared as well! <br /><br />This suggests to me two thought processes, two perpetrators working in concert, one in the basement with the body (likely JR), the second on the first floor with the note and note pad, quite literally distancing herself from JB's body.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-37430040749853749312015-07-21T10:35:37.491-04:002015-07-21T10:35:37.491-04:00You are assuming that Patsy not only would have th...You are assuming that Patsy not only would have the gumption to take charge of this kidnapping, but also take it upon herself to dump JonBenet's body en route to the bank without John going with her? Patsy knew she would never get the opportunity to remove the body from the basement without John knowing about it. She did what she was comfortable doing: being a dramatic victim for not only her friends to see but also law enforcement. There really was no other choice for her.<br /><br />HerculeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-27658708892209726502015-07-20T10:46:32.856-04:002015-07-20T10:46:32.856-04:00If she wanted to contaminate the crime scene, she ...If she wanted to contaminate the crime scene, she would have called her friends over without also calling the police. Don't forget, she called 911 first, the police arrived first, and if they'd been on the ball, would not have allowed anyone else to enter the house. No need to call in the cops at that point. The friends could then have been sworn to secrecy and asked to leave, probably taking Burke with them. The body could then have been removed in secret (via the car trunk I'd imagine) the following night. Only then would the police have been called.DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-88810467842649683252015-07-20T02:10:44.628-04:002015-07-20T02:10:44.628-04:00Doesn't add up does it? Clearly we have a rans...Doesn't add up does it? Clearly we have a ransom note addressed to John but it is placed in a spot where Patsy would find it first. Why was it so important for Patsy to find the note first? She wanted to make sure the 911 call was made. Why? The same reason that she called her friends and demanded that they come to her side. To contaminate the crime scene.<br /><br />HerculeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-69358451891347946632015-07-19T15:56:07.166-04:002015-07-19T15:56:07.166-04:00If jdi he didn't have to leave the note where ...If jdi he didn't have to leave the note where he knew patsy walked down before him in the morning she was alone at first with him taking a shower he was really taking a huge risk which to me didn't make sense if everything hinged on pasty not calling the police he could have made sure he was first to find the note and take charge of it all from there .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-84325370138340643842015-07-19T15:18:20.638-04:002015-07-19T15:18:20.638-04:00Yet another reason why it's important to focus...Yet another reason why it's important to focus on the facts and avoid making assumptions. The story about Burke hearing John tell Patsy to call the police originated, as far as I can tell, with Steve Thomas's book. Since Thomas was eager to point the finger at Patsy and give John "a pass," it's possible he heard what he wanted to hear when he questioned Burke, and that might not have been what Burke actually said. I'm wondering whether anyone can find a transcript of that interview so we can verify it. I'm not saying Thomas lied, but it's possible he didn't hear Burke clearly or misinterpreted what he'd said.<br /><br />It's also important not to assume that Burke actually heard what he claimed to have heard, even if Thomas's report is accurate. Burke's room was some distance from the room where John claimed (in their book) to have told Patsy to call the police. It seems likely to me that Burke had been prompted to make a statement to that effect. <br /><br />The bottom line is that Patsy's version of what happened, as documented in the A&E interview, is very different from what Burke is alleged to have said, and also what is alleged to have taken place according to what John said in their first CNN interview and also their book. In the documentary, she states very clearly that she told John she was going to make that call and then went downstairs to make it. Nothing there about John telling her to make the call. John is sitting next to her as she says this and makes no effort to correct her. I just now posted a link to the A&E documentary (see the following blog post) so everyone can see for himself what she said and how John reacted.<br /><br />The report regarding what Burke said is not a fact, but merely a report. What Patsy said, on the other hand, IS a fact, as documented in living color via A&E, assisted by youtube -- and she speaks very clearly and decisively. <br /><br />The other relevant fact of this matter is the fact that Patsy is the one who made that call, a call she would not have made if she were involved in the staging of a kidnapping. Putting the facts together it seems clear the call was Patsy's idea, not John's. In view of the facts it looks to me as though Thomas either misinterpreted Burke or Burke had been prompted to lie for the same reason Patsy eventually lied: to support John's version of what happened.<br />DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-24487000828222258062015-07-19T14:19:54.726-04:002015-07-19T14:19:54.726-04:00For some reason, certain comments never seem to sh...For some reason, certain comments never seem to show up in the comments section. Fortunately all turn up in my email, so I can usually catch the lost ones and post them myself. Here's my latest "find," by our old friend "Anonymous":<br /><br />I read one of the statements about Burke Ramsey being interviewed after he admitted to being awake that morning he said he heard his parents voices and heard his dad tell his mum to call the police why would he lie about that? Anyone else remember reading that? If he indeed was being truthful then docs theory cannot make sense for the option of JR did it . <br />DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-77970223569689315792015-07-19T12:06:49.704-04:002015-07-19T12:06:49.704-04:00There was a phone on each floor of the house.There was a phone on each floor of the house.DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-51219033438103354412015-07-19T10:12:34.436-04:002015-07-19T10:12:34.436-04:00CH, thanks for your reply. Your explanation is, o...CH, thanks for your reply. Your explanation is, once again,well thought out. I just have two comments:<br /><br />Being a mother myself, if I had found that note and realized my daughter was, in fact, gone (I believe Patsy says she read just the first couple lines of the RN and then raced upstairs to check JonBenet's bedroom), I would have gone back to the note and read it thoroughly before doing anything. Who wouldn't?? At that point, that RN was the only thing she had giving her any information about where her daughter was. So I find it unbelievable that she did not read the whole note.<br /><br />Second, based on the JDI theory that Doc and so many others have talked about in this blog, JR had everything riding on that note preventing the police from being involved so that he could get the body out of the house. Everything depended on Patsy NOT calling the police, so I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have stayed close to the phone while reading the note and then telling Patsy that they absolutely could not call the police. He wouldn't have to strong-arm her; he simply needed to stay by that phone. If she tried to pick up the receiver, he could have easily told her that JonBenet would be killed if she called anyone. But as I understand it, after Patsy screamed out to John and he saw the note, he raced upstairs to check on Burke. Why on earth would he leave that phone to do that? He could have told Patsy to check on Burke. For that matter, he could have cut the phone line to prevent any calls, although I know I'm going out on a limb here.<br /><br />So based on the prevailing theory in this blog, John took a HUGE risk leaving that phone area that morning. The note was just a few feet away from the phone so it would have been very easy for him to stay there while reading the note. And if he is as narcissistic as many believe he is, he would not jeopardize that body being found in the house.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-5358949506845631242015-07-18T22:59:53.888-04:002015-07-18T22:59:53.888-04:00@still wondering if PDI
Doc has written quite a ...@still wondering if PDI <br /><br />Doc has written quite a bit about your question, so I'll just touch on it briefly. <br /><br />Why didn't JR stop Patsy from making the 911 call? <br /><br />My theory is that Patsy probably only read the fist few lines of the RN, just enough to know he daughter was kidnapped. She may have made the call when JR was in another room or on the other side of the room. Once the final "1" is punched, the call is made. It takes what, 2 seconds to "dial" 911? Before JR can do anything she's already talking to the operator. <br /><br />JR would have to be within arms length of PR at all times to prevent a call. That would be suspicious. So, at least imo, JR simply could not have prevented the call. Unless he were going to hold her wrists or rip the phones out of the wall, there is simply no way to prevent punching 3 numbers. It can't be done w/o giving away that he's trying to hide something. <br /><br />To be fair, he could have held her to prevent the call, at least long enough to explain that the note has repeated threats and that JBR might be killed. But he can't hold her all day long, and if she doesn't believe the threats ..... <br /><br />To me the more interesting question is why did PR make the call? <br /><br />One reason of course is that it was her role in the coverup JR and PR cooked up, but then we are right back to the "kidnapping gone wrong" scenario which I think we both agree is not very plausible. So basically, PR can't have been involved in a coverup, just as Doc has repeatedly said. If she were, she'd never have made that call at that time. <br /><br />Another reason is that she may simply have read only a few lines of the RN, enough to realize that her daughter had been kidnapped, and she wanted the police to help get her back. <br /><br />Still another possibility is that she read the entire note and simply didn't believe the threats. Though repeated, they do "sound" like someone trying to convey a tough-guy image, but end up "sounding" like a bad movie script (and of course we know some lines were lifted right out of a few movies). She may have felt it was more important to get the police involved since they were probably better off with the police than trying to handle the situation themselves (seen from PR's POV and believing the RN to be real) <br /><br />In short there is no way for JR to prevent a 911 call. Even if he stopped her initially, if she want's to make the call, she's making the call. <br /><br />You're correct in thinking that it's absolutely crucial to JR's plan that Patsy not make that call. But when you consider how easy the call can be made, and how drastic JR would have to act to prevent a call, you realize that he couldn't stop it. <br /><br />JMO, but I think the way the RN is written - with a warning in the first paragraph that if they want to see JBR alive in '97 all instructions have to be followed to the letter - JR assumed that PR (or anyone) would read the entire letter, wanting to know what the instructions were. He did not bank on her reading only a few lines, or if she read further, disbelieving the threats. <br /><br />Also jmo, but I think the reason for the "small foreign faction" was to make PR believe the kidnappers were an organization that actually had the willingness and ability to kill JBR, and the ability to use "electronic countermeasures" to keep the Rs under surveillance. To me she either didn't read that far, or felt the threats and claims were so over the top she dismissed them as BS. <br /><br />Sorry, that was more long-winded than I had intended. <br /><br />CHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-31541243419994855872015-07-18T17:27:33.622-04:002015-07-18T17:27:33.622-04:00Thank you CH for your response. You put much clar...Thank you CH for your response. You put much clarity in your explanation of why PR couldn't have written the RN. <br /><br />But here's what I don't get. If JR is guilty and he is the one who wrote the ransom note, then why on earth did he allow Patsy to call the police? I understand what you're saying: that both Ramseys were too smart to expect the police to buy into a kidnapping gone bad scenario. But if that is true, then by allowing Patsy to call the police, JR is immediately banking that the police will accept IDI and that the "kidnapping" went bad. After all, that is what the Ramseys have all along contended; that there was an intent to kidnap and get ransom money, but somehow JonBenet was murdered before that could happen. If JR went to all that trouble to stage the basement and write that 'War and Peace' of ransom notes, why would be EVER allow Patsy to phone the police? Certainly if he had the power to manipulate Patsy so much AFTER the discovery of the body, then why wouldn't he have done it that morning, to prevent Patsy from calling 911? He could have simply reminded her that they would risk JonBenet's life if they alerted the police. He could have convinced Patsy that he could get the money and they would at least have a chance at getting JonBenet back. I think Patsy would have listened to him and agreed.<br /><br />Doc is correct about the 911 call. That is a pivotal moment in this case. If she had not made that call, this case would likely have ended much differently. But she did. Why would John ever allow her to do that???<br /><br />Thanks again CH for your thoughtful response (unlike others I have encountered)<br /><br />still wondering if PDIAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-75052030530096064472015-07-18T13:24:04.980-04:002015-07-18T13:24:04.980-04:00I read one of the statements about Burke Ramsey be...I read one of the statements about Burke Ramsey being interviewed after he admitted to being awake that morning he said he heard his parents voices and heard his dad tell his mum to call the police why would he lie about that? Anyone else remember reading that? If he indeed was being truthful then docs theory cannot make sense for the option of JR did it .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-56710854411909834592015-07-18T08:39:30.433-04:002015-07-18T08:39:30.433-04:00The problem with suspecting PR, based on the words...The problem with suspecting PR, based on the words chosen in the RN, or the fact that she wore the same clothes, etc. etc., is this - if you suspect PR, then you must accept the larger implications of her involvement. <br /><br />Specifically, if you want to entertain the idea that maybe PR wrote the RN, then the implication, which you must also accept, is that she staged a "kidnapping gone wrong" scene and expected the police detectives to believe it. <br /><br />If PR killed JBR and wrote the RN then called the police virtually guaranteeing that the police would find both a RN and a body, then clearly she was hoping the police would buy the intruder theory. (Hey, we have a body, hidden, and a RN. Gee, must have been an intruder, no reason to suspect a family member) <br /><br />But it's hard to see why an intruder would redress the body or wrap it or place in in the WC. It's hard to see why the kidnapping "went wrong" when the kidnapper had already taken the child from her bed and brought her downstairs. Why then go to the basement? Why not just leave with the girl? <br /><br />To suspect PR is to view the "kidnapping gone wrong" scenario as realistic and believable, or at least you must accept that PR thought it would be believable. But PR is no dummy. And no amount of narcissism would make either of the adult Rs think the police would find that scenario convincing. (They didn't build a successful computer business by not knowing what other people will or will not believe)<br /><br />So, if you suspect PR, you are essentially accepting the very real possibility of IDI. If you reject IDI, as I see it, you must also reject the notion that PR (or JR for that matter) was stupid enough to think the kidnapping gone wrong scene was convincing. You must reject that PR (and/or JR) staged a kidnapping gone wrong. <br /><br />In short you must believe PR is incredibly stupid, or you must accept that IDI is a real possibility. <br /><br />There is a danger in trying to come up with a unified field theory of the case, one which incorporates every doubt and every unexplained act or statement. You end up allowing small things to make you suspicious and ignore the larger implications, which simply can't be true. <br /><br />It simply can't be true that PR wrote a RN, then turned around and called police so they'd find the RN and a dead body, cleaned, redressed, wrapped, and hidden if she wanted the police to believe IDI. It can't be true that PR wrote the RN then ignored all the warnings she herself put in the RN by calling friends over, and calling 911 w/o asking them to send unmarked cars. It can't be true that PR wrote the RN in conjunction with a "kidnapping gone wrong" scenario because that is either unbelievable, or makes IDI completely plausible. <br /><br />It's these larger implications that guide the logic, not every little doubt you have. <br /><br />CHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-32595465757017715532015-07-17T22:37:49.990-04:002015-07-17T22:37:49.990-04:00"I don't think Doc's theory gives Pat..."I don't think Doc's theory gives Patsy a pass, rather I think it fully vets the possibility of her being involved and rules it out for a number of reasons. But, like he said, if she helped John, let him have his day in court and explain that."<br /><br />Yes. Thank you.DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-42872475834671544422015-07-17T22:35:20.748-04:002015-07-17T22:35:20.748-04:00Both parents lied, yes. Why did they lie? Excellen...Both parents lied, yes. Why did they lie? Excellent question, one of the key questions of the case.<br /><br />If we stick with the facts, we see that only two of Patsy's alleged lies can be objectively corroborated. Please correct me if you find any others. We know she lied about what happened prior to the 911 call because she provided two contradictory versions of what happened. And we know she lied about cleaning up the glass from the basement window with the help of her housekeeper because 1. John's story about breaking the glass earlier is on its face a complete sham; 2. she could not recall if the window had ever been repaired, which is not credible; 3. the housekeeper, who was thoroughly investigated and cleared, denied it and actually accused her of lying.<br /><br />What do these two lies have in common? They are attempts to corroborate John's version of what happened. Implying that John was manipulating her. If she'd contradicted him on either of these points, he would have looked very suspicious indeed.<br /><br />John on the other hand, lied on numerous occasions and not one of his lies supported anything Patsy ever claimed. He was clearly the one in charge. His lies have a completely different meaning than hers.DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-89678556862311392932015-07-17T22:33:19.255-04:002015-07-17T22:33:19.255-04:00No, I haven't lost interest in this blog. I...No, I haven't lost interest in this blog. I've been out of town and without access to my computer. I was able to read the comments but didn't have a decent keyboard so didn't respond.DocGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17359004200002936544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6494242281396312957.post-76190181120892139122015-07-17T17:06:27.690-04:002015-07-17T17:06:27.690-04:00Doc said earlier that he wouldn't be commentin...Doc said earlier that he wouldn't be commenting much unless someone posts some new ground to cover. To the above person: John said that a friend told him to hire a lawyer, but who is to believe that...which friend really owns up to saying that? Besides, if I were a friend I would have told him the same because he did look to be in trouble by his own behavior -- trying to book a flight and get the hell out of dodge when your little 6 year our baby girl is dead and still at the morgue? Who does that? Yes, its not evidence, but it sure does look back to your friends and to the cops. Now, I put little to no stock in profiling, and you can be sure that I'm offended when people suggest that women (or men) can become murderous just because they have emotional issues (assuming Patsy had emotional issues). Think about it, don't all murderers have some kind of mental issue, while all people with issues are not murderers? So it doesn't tell us much, and its certainly not a reason to discount the factual case that Doc has put together on this blog. She was recovering from cancer, you know. She was doing well at that point; had a new lease on life. Had her hair back, was going to parties, throwing parties, spending time with her kids again. I don't think Doc's theory gives Patsy a pass, rather I think it fully vets the possibility of her being involved and rules it out for a number of reasons. But, like he said, if she helped John, let him have his day in court and explain that. Patsy's lies, by the way, were only to help corroborate John's big fat stupid story about the window. That window was staged and everyone knew it. He had to cover up for why it was broken. As Doc explained, she was sort of in a bind there, being forced to support that story given the the pressure that was on her, and probably her disbelief at this point that her husband could have done this. I've read all the other theories out there and the problem with them is that they don't link together just the facts, and reasonable conclusions based solely on facts. This case won't be solved by asking thousands of people what they think "could" have happened. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com